Hi All, My original post was about pointing out to Goanetters, a post titled 'Usage of 'double rhyming' words in Konkani <https://mail.google.com/mail/html/compose/static_files/goog_47293218>- A humorous write-up'<http://konkani.savemylanguage.org/2010/06/konkani-double-rhyming-words-funny.html>. I had begun that post by mentioning about a couple of sheets I had picked up many years ago in Goa on Konkani Onomatopoeia (by Vicente Correira Afonso) and then pointed to the above article on the Save My Language site. This was not to make any connection between the two. Moving on, Sebastian Borge's questions are related to Onomatopoeia, Rhymes and Reduplication. I am pointing this out to state that the subject heading is not quite misleading. Please bear this in mind. I have furthered introduced two interesting devices used in speech for those of you who may be interested. They are Antanaclasis (as in reflection) and Polyptoton (ex. Prayer of St. Francis). (venantius j pinto) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear Sebastian, Regards: your "I do not get the import of 'double rhyming' in the subject line"; my interjection of the onomatopoeia thought was me merely revealing my tangential thinking and as explained above. Perhaps writing a separate post would have been better on my part. The questions though about what the word would be in Konkani was serious. And thanks for sharing that. My Konkani orthography for Onukoronn was spelt wrongly, and hence would be misprounounced by me, although I was aware of the word. I am also aware of xobdkox', and 'utravoll." Again thank you for sharing those, since as always I am of the opinion that others too may be interested, and sharing helps us all, as it does me. Moving on. From your questions below, you are keen on talking about Onomatopoeia, yet also alluding/taking off/thoughts stemming from, "Usage of 'double rhyming' words in Konkani - A humorous write-up." So, with all due respect to a learned person, and although this is is way above my lingusitic station--I proceed to respond. Sebastian BORGES: Doesn't rhyme mean two DIFFERENT words with similar ending? But here we have the same element being repeated. vjp: I am not remotely interested in any analysis of that post. I am happy that I got to read it and share it. See *!*!*. From what little I am aware of, Rhymes have a similar auditory ending. Rimes though, have the same terminal sound. Bite/kite/sprite/white, and that could also be a word or a line. Light would not be a rime since it does not visually end the same as WHITE, but would be considered a rhyme since it sounds the same. I hear you completely. *!*!* Perhaps, that is why the SML piece was titled 'Usage of 'double rhyming' words in Konkani - A humorous write-up, with 'double rhyming' in quotes to point that the piece be treated in a light manner, and further indicated as, "a humorous write-up" (quotes mine). Perhaps the marker could/ought to have been MIMETIC WORDS. To reiterate; for words to be regarded as rhyme, they must have* *close similarity of sound between accented syllables. To conclude the above: Needless to add, but I read these pieces for what they are and attempt to share them on Goanet, simply because they are of interest to me, and also 'cause others do not do so. Many other pieces have got turned down, and now I do not post them; on sexuality for one. But thats all cool. And often although something may be related to another language, it could help us see things in a different light. I have other interests such as the precise pressure of brush across any given Kanji character in any given style, or the preparation/consistency/application of stick-ink on any given paper; and although I could make some good analogies against a broad range of tropes, it would be too far out, and esoteric. I am however given to breaking processes down. I rarely take issues with ideas people put out, unless my feeble knowledge makes me see that someone knowingly is pulling something over someone. To mean, that at my level I am happy that people are writing on specific ideas and being upfront about them. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Sebastian BORGES: Does 'onomatopoiea' refer to only nouns which describe things with which then sound is associated? Or could it also be used for others like adverbs, adjectives and verbs. Also, does it have to be an imitation of a sound or would just any reduplicative qualify to be an onomatopoeia? Examples: "Ghosghoso' is waterfall (a noun), 'ghoso ghoso vhanvta' (an adverb), 'virvirit = slender and 'zhogzhogit' = gaudy (adjectives), "furfurta' = gets enthusiatic (a verb). vjp: I find it interesting that you pose these questions. Consonant reduplication? any Reduplication (see response to your next question, via David Crystal, from A Dictionary of Language).! I also believe that some of this may have to do with how any given language perceives these things. Say, Kham, Japanese, Navajo, etc. The sound has to have an association (as in cuckoo, the bird the sound), a referent. "Ghosghoso' is waterfall (a noun) would be an onomatopoeia, 'ghoso ghoso vhanvta' would I believe be onomatopoeic. Furfurta too would qualify as onomatopoeia; or I could be wrong too--and not being of much help! What is furfurta a referent of? A furfur/furfurta of what? It is indeed suggestive of emotion, and hence from the perspective of rhetorical effect--an onomatopoeia I believe, as in in the last lines of Sir Alfred Tennyson's poem 'Come Down, O Maid', m and n sounds produce an atmosphere of murmuring insects (from the web): ... the moan of doves in immemorial elms, And murmuring of innumerable bees. Perhaps it is similar in Konkani, AND THIS IS WHERE YOU, and THE OTHER Konkani heavies come in, based on your command of the language--finding/determining onomatopoeia, the onomatopoeic, and onomatopoeically sharing. An interesting example of onomatopoiea' is the word Laosh. A very urban word if you will. I am not concerned whether it has been accepted by the lexicographers. Anyway: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=adjective%2C%20adverb +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Sebastian BORGES: Are 'onomatopoeia' and 'reduplicative' synonymous? vjp: In terms of being synonymously reflecting the same content perhaps not. Anyway, here is how ReduplicaTION is defined in, A Dictionary of Language, Second Ed., by David Crystal. Various types of repetition in the structure of the word. In historical linguistics, the term refers to the way a prefix/suffix reflects certain phonological characteristics of a root. In Greek for example, /lu:o:/ is the present tense form, 'Ioose'; /leluka/, with repeated /l/, is the perfect tense form, 'I have loosed'. In English, compound words such as helter-skelter are called reduplicative compounds. In language acquisition, the term describes the early pronounciation of polysyllabic words when children pronounce different syllables in the same way e.g. water as /'wawa/). +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Moving even further, but now presenting the kind of material that helps me think seek meaning in consciousness, sexuality and religion. PLEASE COMPLETELY ignore if what follows is irrelevant to you or this post, since its has veered way past Onomatopoeia, which is the thrust of your post. But since we are on Goanet, I treat it as a Public Information Channel. I presume that other find things in the same manner I do sometimes do on Goanet, although the pickings are very lean. A Rhyme shares kinship with Alliteration, Assonance, Consonance, Homoiteleuton, Onomatopoeia. But let us look at two other interesting forms of speech which are part of our lives and quite subtly so--Antanaclasis, and Polyptoton. Antanaclasis**, employed in rhetorical speech (Rhetoric), and is the stylistic trope where a single word is repeated, but reveals a different meaning each time the repetition occurs. **to mean, reflection. One used quite often in India is "She is nice from far, but far from nice!" We also have Polyptotion, where in the same sentence, a word is repeated, but in a different case; or different inflection. A classic example of polyptoton is in the Prayer of of St. Francis of Assisi: See below: consoled, CONSOLE; understood, UNDERSTAND; loved, LOVE; pardoning, PARDONED. "Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console; To be understood as to understand; To be loved as to love; For it is in giving that we receive; It is in pardoning that we are pardoned; And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life." I leave you with this. Apologies for not being more helpful. All the best. venantius j pinto Message: 8 > Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 07:03:30 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sebastian Borges <s_m_bor...@yahoo.com> > To: GoaNet fred <goanet@lists.goanet.org> > Subject: Re: [Goanet] Usage of 'double rhyming' words in Konkani > Message-ID: <12029.42995...@web113317.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Dear Venantius, > To my mind, 'Utor' would be equally correct. For dictionary we say > 'xobdkox' and for vocabulary we say 'utravoll'. But why add 'ghodop'? I have > heard this word 'ghoddop' (the O being open) used for rhyme. I do not get > the import of 'double rhyming' in the subject line. Doesn't rhyme mean two > DIFFERENT words with similar ending? But here we have the same element being > repeated. And we do have 'double rhyming' Konkani words in which the second > part just rhymes with the first but does not mean anything on its own. Like > "pustokam-bistokam" (books and the like). > But one technical question: Does 'onomatopoiea' refer to only nouns which > describe things with which then sound is associated? Or could it also be > used for others like adverbs, adjectives and verbs. Also, does it have to be > an imitation of a sound or would just any reduplicative qualify to be an > onomatopoiea? Examples: "Ghosghoso' is waterfall (a noun), 'ghoso ghoso > vhanvta' (an adverb), 'virvirit = slender and 'zhogzhogit' = gaudy > (adjectives), "furfurta' = gets enthusiatic (a verb). Are 'onomatopoeia' and > 'reduplicative' synonymous? > > Sebastian Borges > > > On 3 Jun 2010 Venantius J Pinto <venantius.pi...@gmail.com> wrote: > > True. I mentioned onomatopoeia while mentioning Vicente Correira Afonso > (not sure ofs pelling). > Then from "Anyway..." I went to point out the double rhyming words post by > *Dr. Manjeshwar Ganesha Kamath, *on the Save My Language site. > Two different topics, but a lead-in in the sense that I saw Dr. Kamat's > piece and also remembered VCA's two-sheet on Konakani Onomatopoeia. This is > how I remember things and make connections, even with disparate ideas. > > Thanks for Onukoronn xobd' as also 'dunnavnni.' > Could it also be utor, or should it never be so. How about Onukoronn > xobd/utor ghodop. > > Btw, years ago I put up a piece on Goanet, Konkani Onomatopoeia_errant > thoughts < > http://www.mail-archive.com/goanet@lists.goanet.org/msg19141.html> > > More on language later, including allusions, rhyming, etc, etc. > > venantius j pinto > > Sebastian Borges