On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 3:29 PM David Riley <fraveyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> But:
>
> - You still need to import something just to print a line, and it is
> confusingly (to the novice) named "fmt"
> - You still need to declare a function called main(), and most brand-new
> programmers don't understand functions yet, so this becomes a "wave the
> dead chicken at it just right" thing
> - Semicolons are still there under the surface, but they're inserted by
> the lexer, and when they get inserted can be really mysterious and trip a
> lot of people up
>
> In contrast, in Python (3, in this case), it is:
>
> print("Hello, world!")
>
to be fair, in Go, "hello world" can be reduced to:
package main
func main() {
println("hello world")
}
that's usually how I start my Go-based lecture.
(and then, 2-3 lectures/hands-on sessions after that, I do introduce
'import "foo"')
-s
> There are no functions to create (you call one, which is universal in all
> these examples, but a lot easier to explain), execution just proceeds from
> top to bottom, variables are created much more easily (explaining the
> difference between = and := to someone who has never programmed before is
> quite a task), loops are far less complex, etc.
>
> I'm not claiming Python is a better language, or less confusing overall.
> Once it gets more complex, Python starts to get in the way a bit more (I've
> never particularly liked the indent-based block structure, though actually
> students got a lot less tripped up by that than by brace matching, so
> there's that). But I steadfastly maintain that Go is not an ideal language
> to learn as a *first* programming language, simply because the amount of
> arcana you have to get right just to get simple things off the ground is
> far more than other languages like Python. And I have a substantial amount
> of experience with students which indicates where the trouble spots would
> be that cause people to give up and decide programming isn't for them
> instead of realizing that they're not starting at the right level.
>
> This isn't a call for Go to change, because I'm totally fine with it being
> a second language after the basics of programming have been mastered. You
> don't start driving in a Porsche unless you want a very expensive and
> hazardous learning experience. Similarly, I think most of us could agree
> that teaching Java as a first programming language should be a felony,
> because it takes all these early-learning challenges and amplifies them
> (not only does main() have to be a function, it has to be in a class
> (what's a class?) and it has to specifically be "public static int
> main(String[] args)").
>
> My only contention, and my intent in answering the original question, is
> that there is a great first-party Tour of Go that is going to be great if
> you already know how to program, but somewhat opaque if you don't already
> understand the basic concepts. Python's own first-party tutorial is the
> same, actually; it's good, but it's set up as an intro to Python assuming
> you already know the basics and I wouldn't recommend it to a new
> programmer. Since the OP didn't specify what level they were looking for,
> I provided both sides of my opinion.
>
>
> - Dave
>
>
> > On Mar 26, 2020, at 4:51 AM, Amnon Baron Cohen <amno...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Go is not C. C programmers have to master explicit memory management,
> which is a challenge to new and experience programmers alike.
> > C is a beautiful language. But very low level.
> >
> > Having spent several years programming in Python, I would say that it is
> much more complicated than Go.
> > It has a large and growing number of expressive features which add to
> the cognitive load of those attempting
> > to get up to speed on the language. When you learn Go, you don't need to
> understand dict comprehensions,
> > decorators, metaclasses, asyncio etc. Compare the breathtaking
> simplicity of launching a Go routine
> > with the convoluted mess of python threading.
> >
> > The lack of strong static typing and a separate compilation phase means
> that errors which in Go would
> > cause a compilation error result in run-time exceptions, when a
> particular code path gets executed.
> >
> > Python also has the "feature" that changes in invisible whitespace
> characters change the programme semantics.
> > I never really understood the rationale for the feature.
> >
> > The Go 1 compatibility promise is also helpful. This means that course
> materials or online code examples written
> > 8 years ago will still work today. The python community broke most
> existing code when they moved from Python 2 to Python 3.
> > (A decade on this transition is still ongoing).
> >
> > On Wednesday, 25 March 2020 23:04:58 UTC, David Riley wrote:
> > It’s just my opinion, and I’m willing to be wrong. :-)
> >
> > But having TAed a university introductory computer science course that
> was first in C and then in Python (and having had several students who
> failed when it was in C retake in Python and pass with flying colors), I
> will say that a lot of the elements that tripped beginners up in C which
> were absent in Python are present in Go.
> >
> > Most of those (e.g. separate compilation, static typing, a few other
> bits of arcana) are features that make Go a much more effective systems
> language than Python, but I do feel like it’s probably best to “take the
> bumpers off” AFTER the student knows about loops, variables, functions,
> etc.
> >
> > Again, it’s only my point of view, and I do have some biases, but they
> do have some basis.
> >
> >
> > - Dave
> >
> > > On Mar 25, 2020, at 17:08, Dan Kortschak <d...@kortschak.io> wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't agree that Go is intrinsically harder than python as a
> beginner
> > > programming language. There are things that are subtle, but these can
> > > largely be avoided in the beginner setting.
> > >
> > > Note that there have been discussions here about using Go as a
> language
> > > for teaching beginners, notably this one
> > > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/golang-nuts/FIRSDBehb3g/discussion
> > >
> > > Dan
> > >
> > >> On Wed, 2020-03-25 at 13:34 -0400, David Riley wrote:
> > >> If you are already a programmer in another language, the Tour of Go
> > >> (tour.golang.org) is absolutely the best.
> > >>
> > >> If you are not already a programmer in another language, I personally
> > >> don't recommend Go as a first language; it's an excellent language,
> > >> but I feel that people will do better with it once they already grasp
> > >> the fundamentals of programming and are ready for something with
> > >> slightly more arcana. Python makes a pretty good first language.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> - Dave
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> On Mar 25, 2020, at 6:07 AM, Renato Marcandier <
> > >>> renato.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hello guys,
> > >>>
> > >>> What's the best course to start with Go?
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Regards
> > >>> RG
> > >>>
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