[09:00am] marzia_google: Hi, everyone, it's time for app engine chat time!
[09:00am] a_a_vasiljev: hi
[09:01am] marzia_google: so, let us know if you have any questions
[09:01am] a_a_vasiljev: any hint about issue #1?
[09:01am] marzia_google: issue #1?
[09:01am] milon: hi
[09:01am] adrianscottcom: great, hi, greetings from panama; current status:
trying to get app-engine-patch config'd; also getting arms around i18n,
decodes etc
[09:02am] slav0nic left the chat room. ("õÈÏÖÕ")
[09:02am] Dennis_TW: any comments about the new limits? good to have them;
just wondering how it came about
[09:02am] a_a_vasiljev: #1: please add java or groovy support
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[09:02am] mcxx: marzia_google: when will you be pushing the new features?
XMPP, cron jobs, etc
[09:02am] marzia_google: ahhhh in the issue tracker. while we are working
on support for other runtime languages, I don't have anything to announce
currently
[09:03am] marzia_google: generally I don't have specific dates for new
features
[09:03am] sar4j joined the chat room.
[09:03am] marzia_google: only to say, everything listed for this quarter is
still currently on track for this quarter
[09:03am] mcxx: ok
[09:03am] AreEmmKay: howabout things that are already half-implemented, like
Cron?
[09:04am] jcgregorio joined the chat room.
[09:04am] Dennis_TW: does that mean billing will come out this quarter?
[09:04am] Kevin_Noonan: It's wonderful to hear you're still on track!
[09:04am] marzia_google: yep, billing is on track for this quarter
[09:04am] marzia_google: cron is on track to be released as well
[09:04am] a_a_vasiljev: I see, but WHAT languages?
[09:05am] marzia_google: i can't announce any specific language
[09:05am] adrianscottcom: ok good those'll be helpful
[09:05am] Dennis_TW: will gae have fine-grained queuing like AWS queues? in
this quarter?
[09:05am] jcgregorio is now known as jcg_google.
[09:05am] Wooble: Clearly it's perl, and the "abandonment" of the project to
build a hardened perl interpreter was a clever ploy to make us think it
isn't.
[09:05am] cgeorg: I have a question about the recent news on high CPU
requests
[09:06am] cgeorg: Does this mean that high CPU requests will not fail,
unless they are so intensive they cause a timeout?
[09:06am] cgeorg: And, were datastore timeouts affected at all?
[09:07am] marzia_google: re:queues I'm not that familiar with AWS queues,
but I would guess we won't have anything like that this quarter
[09:07am] marzia_google: re:CPU essentially that is correct
[09:07am] jcg_google: cgeorg: yes, you will still be cut off at 30 seconds
per request, but can use all the cpu you want during that 30s
[09:07am] Wooble: I wonder if an SQS clone could be built as an appengine
app rather than as a google-provided API.
[09:07am] cgeorg: that's excellent
[09:08am] Dennis_TW: no queues. ok, what was meant by "Task queues for
performing background processing " in the road map? this is a separate line
from 'Support for scheduled tasks ' which is also on the map
[09:08am] cgeorg: Not that I want to use 30s of CPU mind you, but I have
some intensive calculations going on sometimes
[09:08am] sar4j: how is django1.0 coming?
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[09:09am] sar4j: that zip import slows down app of order of 100 times
[09:09am] jcg_google: sar4j: there are instructions for how to use Django
1.0 now, but we don't have a bundled Django 1.0 on the roadmap
[09:09am] Dennis_TW: wobble, yes but it might be tricky and certainly tricky
to test. would rather have google build it.
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[09:10am] nwinter: I'm seeing widely varying response times on certain
requests, with really long responses clustered together in time
[09:10am] nickjohnson: sar4j: Do you have any data on that? 100 times seems
high, and as far as I'm aware, zipimport should only have performance impact
when first loading modules.
[09:11am] mcxx: are there any more cool changes comming to SDK 1.1.20?
[09:11am] nwinter: At certain times of day, regardless of usage (which is
relatively low), the app becomes almost unusably slow, with some normally
1400ms requests taking up to 11500ms
[09:11am] nwinter: any ideas?
[09:11am] marzia_google: nwinter: it's difficult to say without having more
information
[09:11am] sar4j: @ jcg_google right now, i am extracting django 1.0 into app
folder and uploading.. (more than 700 files) is there another (better) way?
can you make it available on webservers in a non-path dir, and tell us to
import it.. rather than ziploading..
[09:12am] marzia_google: if you have start up costs to your python script
[09:12am] marzia_google: this could be why
[09:12am] nwinter: right, I'm checking this
[09:12am] marzia_google: as traffic increases
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[09:12am] marzia_google: more interpreters are being fired up
[09:12am] sar4j: @nickjohnson - no its just a simple test I am running.. if
I have ziploader it goes ~2000ms, if i extract the files and upload ~85ms
[09:12am] marzia_google: which is why they might be clustered more together
[09:12am] nwinter: on simple requests with no datastore and low CPU, if I
don't start up an interpreter, it can take ~50ms (normal)
[09:12am] nickjohnson: sar4j: Are you doing multiple requests? The first
request will be disproportionately expensive.
[09:12am] sar4j: sorry its 20 times
[09:13am] nwinter: but randomly, independent of usage, the same request with
no startup can take up to 1600ms
[09:13am] sar4j: yes,
[09:13am] sar4j: @nickjohnson I am..
[09:13am] nwinter: and that'll happen to a bunch of requests at once, and a
few seconds later it'll be fine, then slow again, etc.; or it can run fine
for hours
[09:13am] nickjohnson: And you're saying all requests are slower with
zipimport?
[09:14am] marzia_google: you could add some logging functionality to your
script to see if this is due to startup costs
[09:14am] marzia_google: you can't always predict when new instances would
be starting up
[09:14am] nwinter: I've done that
[09:14am] cgeorg: marz: Were datastore timeouts affected at all? (when the
CPU change went in)
[09:14am] nwinter: the startup costs for that request should be ~1000-1400ms
[09:15am] nwinter: and I see that when it's not doing any startup, it still
varies widely from normal performance
[09:15am] nwinter: I'm not running 30 active requests concurrently, either
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[09:16am] jcg_google: sar4j: I seem to remember a conversation where someone
got django down to a much smaller number of files, let me search
[09:16am] marzia_google: cgeorg: no, datastore timeouts were not related to
the CPU changes
[09:16am] sar4j: @nick yes mate.. I use app-engine-patch.. like
marzia_google says.. it is new instance for many times.. my app doesnot have
*heavy* usage.. but for sparse requests, its almost always hitting a new
instance.. so i extracted and uploaded django..
[09:16am] marzia_google: nwinter: have you checked the status site to see
general system latency the times you've noticed this?
[09:17am] nwinter: yeah, and at first it seemed to correspond somewhat --
increased get latency, and we'd see issues
[09:17am] sar4j: @ jcg_google thanks mate.. let me know..
[09:17am] nwinter: but as we looked closer, the two didn't really match up
that well
[09:17am] Dennis_TW: no pre-bundled django 1.0 support planned: does this
mean google will also stop supporting django-helper at some point?
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[09:18am] nwinter: it was doing it significantly about two hours ago, and
there was no reported system status latency
[09:18am] nwinter: but it's as if the serving really was pretty spotty, at
least for my app
[09:19am] a_a_vasiljev: May you please comment #1058? It seems that secure
urls (
http://code.google.com/intl/ru/appengine/docs/python/tools/configuration.html#Secure_URLs)
are broken now
[09:19am] marzia_google: nwinter: i'm out of any other immediate ideas,
other than to say even when everything as a system is running well, latency
per app may vary
[09:19am] cgeorg: one other question - does any work on app engine occur in
the pittsburgh office?
[09:19am] jcg_google: Dennis_TW: just said it wasn't on the roadmap, which
is just a six month view of high level items, didn't say it wasn't planned
[09:19am] sar4j: @ jcg_google but in any case wouldn't it be easier to put
django somethere in non path, and give us a configurable app.yaml
instruction or some small piece of code to patch in.. would also save a lot
of space on the servers.. reducing all those copies of the same jar to ONE!
[09:19am] adrianscottcom: marzia/nwinter: maybe a metric google team should
track to confirm nwinter's report
[09:20am] sar4j: sorry zip*
[09:20am] marzia_google: re:1058
[09:20am] nwinter: if that's possible, it would be great; I can't think of
anything else to try, either
[09:20am] marzia_google: the fact that you were able to have Google Apps
auth off of an appspot domain was an issue that was fixed
[09:21am] marzia_google: but we realize that this prevents serving secure
pages and using Google Apps auth
[09:21am] nickjohnson: sar4j: Identical files are only stored once anyway,
so it's not a storage issue. In general, it'd be nice to have, but there's
an endless parade of other libraries you could say the same about.
[09:21am] marzia_google: and we are working on a solution for this
[09:21am] AreEmmKay: ++sar4j's iidea
[09:21am] Guest37720: Does the GAE team know or plan on adding more options
to the deploy/versioning process?
[09:21am] a_a_vasiljev: OK, thanks
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[09:21am] AreEmmKay joined the chat room.
[09:21am] Guest37720: I'd like to be able to set a version of the app via
the command line
[09:22am] rizumu left the chat room.
[09:22am] Guest37720: also, it would be nice if I could delete the oldest
version command line
[09:22am] Guest37720: we use a build system, nightly deploys and such
[09:22am] Guest37720: crap.. i am guest .. need to change my nick
[09:22am] nickjohnson: There is no concept of 'oldest' version - major
versions are arbitrary strings
[09:22am] Guest37720 is now known as MikeWesner.
[09:22am] marzia_google: cgeorg: we don't generally comment on where
projects are based, but I would like to give a shoutout to the 'burgh and
the steelers! and my alma mater CMU
[09:23am] dan_google: Guest37720: Feel free to file these feature requests
using the issue tracker.
[09:23am] MikeWesner: nick.. ya but if I could say delete 'version'
[09:23am] MikeWesner: that would work
[09:23am] cgeorg: I have been thinking of applying there
[09:23am] cgeorg: This would be a fun project
[09:23am] cgeorg: but, just got a promotion, so I will probably stick here a
bit longer
[09:23am] nwinter: my girlfriend just got into there for grad school, and
she's very psyched
[09:24am] nickjohnson: I think the latter would certainly be a good thing to
file an issue for. You could modify appcfg.py to support taking the version
on the command line fairly easily, though.
[09:24am] Kevin_Noonan: Do you know of any other books which will be
published on App Engine (besides O'Reilly, Manning & Apress)?
[09:24am] cgeorg: nwinter: congrats to her
[09:24am] dan_google: Kevin_Noonan: I saw a Wrox title in Amazon's catalog
at one point.
[09:25am] hollerith joined the chat room.
[09:25am] dan_google:
http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Google-App-Engine-Programming/dp/0470464933/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234977914&sr=8-3
[09:25am] nickjohnson: Kevin_Noonan: There's two from O'Reilley, in case you
weren't aware
[09:25am] jcg_google: sar4j: Found that conversation, Guido does this in
Rietveld,
http://code.google.com/p/rietveld/source/browse/trunk/make_release.sh
[09:26am] Kevin_Noonan: Thanks guys.
[09:26am] Dennis_TW: my app willl send a lot of email and the email limits
are low. i'll likely send the emails from an external system unless gae
email becomes cheap to purchase. any comments on outbound email pricing
(yup, i know you don't want to support spammy apps)
[09:27am] dan_google:
http://www.amazon.com/Using-Google-Engine-Charles-Severance/dp/059680069X/
[09:27am] marzia_google: email pricing will be included when billing is
released
[09:28am] sar4j: @jcg_google will take a look.. thanks a bunch
[09:28am] Dennis_TW: for your email pricing, are you considering the use
case of some social networking apps that send lots of email notifications?
[09:29am] AreEmmKay left the chat room.
[09:29am] AreEmmKay joined the chat room.
[09:29am] Wooble: the "Mail API Calls" quota isn't listed as adjustable; is
this an oversight or will apps that want to send more than 7000 emails a day
just be impossible?
[09:29am] hollerith: first off - thanks for gae everyone involved - great
stuff!
[09:30am] nurey joined the chat room.
[09:30am] sar4j: on emails, we cant attach .doc files.. (in this time of
recession, can't we use this? for resumes :P)
[09:30am] Wooble: use PDF; broke companies can't afford Word anyway
[09:30am] hollerith: second - a real n00b question, I see the issue with
djangoforms request.FILES['picfile']['content']? is this fixed?
[09:31am] nickjohnson: sar4j: You can attach anything you like
[09:31am] marzia_google: re: email the price for email isn't application
dependent
[09:31am] rizumu joined the chat room.
[09:31am] hollerith: I don't wnat to use the webapp handler as I'm using
django,
[09:31am] Dennis_TW: re email: don't really understand that reply
[09:32am] marzia_google: basically we will charge a flat rate per emails
sent
[09:32am] marzia_google: so
[09:32am] marzia_google: over the initial 2000
[09:32am] nurey: hi marzia_google
[09:32am] nurey: early chat today
[09:33am] sar4j: @nickjohnson - no.. only some mime types are allowed
http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/python/mail/attachments.html
[09:33am] Dennis_TW: 2000 emails is low and if email is critical for the
app, that won't do. that's fine, i just have to design around it. but i
just want to know what google is thinking. will there be another limit
increase for emails like there was for high cpu?
[09:34am] marzia_google: for free quota, we don't have any plans to increase
the 2000 limit
[09:34am] Wooble: obvious solution: save emails in datastore, have remote
API application on spambot zombie network^W^W^Wexternal server send them
[09:34am] Dennis_TW: @wobble, yup, that's the plan
[09:34am] nickjohnson: I believe it is an oversight that the various other
mail quotas aren't listed as adjustable
[09:35am] sar4j: @Wooble
[09:35am] nickjohnson: What Marzia is saying is that you _will_ be able to
purchase additional email quota
[09:35am] marzia_google: hollerith: I'm not sure of the specific issue to
which you are referring, but generally with issues, i'd check the issue
tracker to see if it has been fixed
[09:36am] beta_ joined the chat room.
[09:36am] Dennis_TW: @ nikcjohnson: i think email pricing will be pretty
high so i'm planning to by pass it
[09:36am] sar4j: @wobble.. but there are some who really cant accept
anything otherthan .doc (ms word).. I give them choice of pdf, html, hresume
and txt.. they want doc!!
[09:36am] Dennis_TW: i think gae is afraid of spammy apps
[09:37am] Wooble: well, it's easier to make them hard/expensive to build
than to make them easy and then have to police them.
[09:37am] hollerith: images work with the webapp.handler but not with the
django, I can see the FILES['picfile']['content']
[09:37am] nickjohnson: Dennis_TW: Out of curiosity, what do you consider
high?
[09:37am] nickjohnson: sar4j: What's the problem with sending doc
attachments?
[09:38am] Kevin_Noonan: Any plans to make this project the 'officially
supported' way to use Django on App Engine?
http://code.google.com/p/app-engine-patch/
[09:38am] DineshV joined the chat room.
[09:38am] scudder joined the chat room.
[09:38am] Dennis_TW: @wooble, yes, i agree. i hear amazon is very strict on
spam in their hosted apps
[09:38am] ryan_google joined the chat room.
[09:39am] sar4j: @nickjohnson, it wont attach.. only those mimes are goign
through.. well to be honest, I tried this a month ago.. unless something
changed......
[09:39am] hollerith: the examples use webapp but I'm using djangoforms, I
don't really want to use the patch either, I wish I'd just started with
webapp
[09:39am] sar4j: @ Kevin_Noonan I use that.. very good!
[09:39am] Dennis_TW: @ nickjohnson, i'm not sure, but 2000 emails (or email
addresses) per day is pretty low. how am i suppose to build facebook2 on
that budget?
[09:39am] nickjohnson: sar4j: The Mail API doesn't care what you're
attaching - it's just a binary blob. But if you still have problems, a
reproduceable test-case would be good.
[09:39am] sar4j: ++Kevin_Noonan
[09:39am] nwinter: hollerith: I don't know what issue you refer to, but
we're using Djangoforms are request['picfile']['content'] just fine
[09:40am] nickjohnson: Dennis_TW: The default limit may not reflect pricing,
simply due to spam concerns on free accounts.
[09:40am] darwin joined the chat room.
[09:40am] hollerith: nwinter: really I googled some issues - have you upped
from .96?
[09:40am] nwinter: nope
[09:40am] scudder: Dennis_TW: if you need to send more emails, fill out the
quota increase form, usually it is no problem though the increases are
granted on a case by case basis
[09:40am] nwinter: let me retest it to make sure
[09:40am] sar4j: @nickjohnson sure thing.. will try again in the evning..
and open a ticket if need be
[09:40am] dan_google: Why would we "officially" support app-engine-path when
Waldemar is already doing an awesome job in supporting it?
[09:40am] hollerith: and you just put it straight in a Blob?
[09:41am] mib_mqpy60kr joined the chat room.
[09:41am] Dennis_TW: @ nickjohnson and scudder, yes, i guess you are right.
[09:41am] nwinter: @hollerith: what's the issue #?
[09:43am] Dennis_TW: @google, i plan to send lots of email. should i start
with the gae limit and ask for more (like 10x more) if i need it? or should
i just go external with my email?
[09:43am] Kevin_Noonan: OK, but there are competing ways to use Django on
App Engine--developers have to decide which one to use.
[09:43am] dan_google: FYI: We added an article about app-engine-patch to our
articles section, written by Jesaja Everling.
[09:43am] hollerith: well the content looks like \x020... I'm still using a
webapp handler to serve the image but I get nothing.
[09:43am] ryan_google: @dennis, if you don't mind paying for it, definitely
start with us!
[09:44am] hollerith: basically it would be okay just to get
request.FILES['picfile']['content'] and stick it in a blob to be served as
in the examples?
[09:44am] ryan_google: (specifically, paying for what you need to send
beyond the free quota)
[09:44am] nickjohnson: Dennis_TW: It's safe to say emails will cost
fractions of a cent (I realise that's a fairly wide range)
[09:44am] hollerith: the imagesharing example etc.
[09:44am] Dennis_TW: @google, billing pricing including email will be out in
6 weeks along with real billing
[09:44am] nwinter: it's potentially different live (this code hasn't been
uploaded yet), but I'm doing that on dev server and it's working
[09:45am] hollerith: it doesn't fail - it can't serve the image, I think the
binary is mush.
[09:46am] Kevin_Noonan: @dan_google Thanks, I wasn't aware of that article
by Jesaja Everling--I guess that means that app-engine-patch *is* officially
sanctioned!
[09:46am] cying joined the chat room.
[09:46am] scudder is now known as scudder_google.
[09:47am] nwinter: img = images.Image(pfile['content'])
[09:47am] nwinter: user.photo =
img.execute_transforms(output_encoding=images.JPEG)
[09:47am] ryan_google: @kevin_noonan, an article doesn't necessarily mean we
officially support it, but it definitely does mean we think highly enough of
it to post on our site
[09:47am] ryan_google: (appengine.ext.search is another example)
[09:47am] dan_google: Kevin_Noonan: AEP is definitely cool, and I'm more
than happy to mention it alongside the Helper as an option.
[09:47am] rizumu left the chat room.
[09:48am] MikeWesner: So, If I don't use the helper's django model junk...
is their a good reason to use one or the other? AEP vs. helper ?
[09:48am] a_a_vasiljev: @dan_google, cause ae-patch often need to be tweaked
(fixed) after new gae release. "Official" means next gae version is tested
with it.
[09:48am] Kevin_Noonan: @ryan_google That's a politician's (or a lawyer's or
a Jesuit's) fine distinction!
[09:50am] Dennis_TW: @ae-patch folks, are you happy with it? i'm not sure
what he does for many-to-many models. it does not seem like i can just
ignore that i'm running on gae datastore. i'm leaning towards 'close to the
metal' control over my datastore model
[09:51am] hollerith: confused, my img_data looks like
\x89PNG\r\n\x1a\n\x00\x00\x00\rIH..., what's pfile?
[09:51am] ryan_google: @kevin_noonan, not sure. for example, a a vasiljev
described one difference. regardless, the high order bit is that it works
and that we want to help when and where we can
[09:51am] dan_google: a_a_vasiljev: Understood. I don't think the Helper
gets that kind of support either, the Helper is just an open source project
that happens to be by Googlers. I believe the Helper intentionally takes a
more conservative stance on patching so as to not depend on stuff behind the
supported API and break with minor versions.
[09:51am] nwinter: hollerith: oh: pfile = request.FILES['photofile']
[09:53am] nwinter: that's what the blob should look like if you print it...
[09:54am] a_a_vasiljev: sure, it's fair. I just wonder if there could be
some way to make aep more "stable" from one gae release to another...
[09:55am] nwinter: when serving the photo up, it has its own handler, which
is essentially: return HttpResponse(user.photo, mimetype="image/jpeg")
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[09:56am] cgeorg: off to my meeting. Thanks googles
[09:56am] ryan_google: one high level answer to this class of problems is
that we intentionally try to avoid including libraries in the app engine
project. we're a small team, and we have our hands full with just
development. we don't have the extra resources that we'd need to also
maintain a distribution of libraries, apply patches and upgrades, etc.
[09:56am] cgeorg: *googlers
[09:56am] Dennis_TW: no ae-patch pros or cons?? here's a thread on
performance
http://groups.google.com/group/app-engine-patch/browse_thread/thread/1a43a072b681c2f8?q=
[09:56am] ryan_google: (i know we're not necessarily thinking of including
the helper or aep here, just officially supporting them, but it's a similar
problem)
[09:57am] apphacker: hi
[09:57am] apphacker: is there an archive of the talk today?
[09:57am] randylien left the chat room.
[09:57am] marzia_google: we will be posting a transcript on the group
[09:57am] apphacker: ok thanks
[09:57am] hollerith: nwinter: thanks for your help, much appreciated. I
think _I_ may be the weak link here... I'll have another look
[09:58am] Kevin_Noonan: Are you getting ready for a big press splash after
the release of Q1's new features--and a tsunami of new developers after the
release of new language X?
[09:58am] nwinter: no problem; I didn't write this code, my partner did, so
I'm just reading it off to ya
[09:58am] a_a_vasiljev left the chat room. (Read error: 54 (Connection reset
by peer))
[09:59am] ryan_google: @kevin, we hope so!
[09:59am] hollerith: well thanks all round oh and I see Jeff Scudder there -
thanks for the gdata stuff too, I'm using it..
[09:59am] nwinter: marzia: is there a channel I can go through to request
someone look at the performance of my app (id: skrit)? I'm at a loss here.
[09:59am] sar4j: I am back
[10:00am] marzia_google: the best channel is the group
[10:00am] a_a_vasiljev joined the chat room.
[10:00am] nwinter: okay; thanks
[10:01am] sar4j: guys.. have any rough idea on java / groovy support?
[10:01am] scudder_google: hollerith: glad to hear it, drop me a line, I'm
curious to know a bit more about what you're building
[10:01am] ianbicking joined the chat room.
[10:01am] ryan_google: @sar4j, sorry, we haven't announced any specific
language(s) yet
[10:02am] ryan_google: i'm off. thanks for coming, all!
[10:02am] a_a_vasiljev: Thanks for your work and your company! bye
[10:02am] ryan_google left the chat room. ("Leaving.")
[10:02am] sar4j: thats's cool.. just asking.. would lov to have it around..
[10:02am] a_a_vasiljev left the chat room. (Client Quit)
[10:03am] jcg_google is now known as jcgregorio.
[10:03am] marzia_google: ok, with that, I'm going to call this chat time
officially closed
[10:03am] marzia_google: thanks everyone for coming!
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