Just a point to make here,in relation to Luisa's observation:
Rather than the differences in priorities and differences between them
on the question of reform vs abolishing untouchability.. Ambedkar and
Gandhi had commonality in goals of independence(you seem to suggest
something like that), is a popular myth when one examines their
thoughts at a closer range.That was precisely why I referred to a few
texts from both. Unfortunately, the discussion here was deflected away
from that issue. Thanks for raising it, though in slightly different
context,the conversation with Jenny.
Regards.
On 6 Oct, 02:01, Luisa Steur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Jenny,
>
> Ok, maybe Macolm X and Martin Luther King's goals were more closely
> shared...but on the issue of abolishing untouchability and attaining
> independence, would you really want to say Gandhi and Ambedkar had opposite
> goals (rather than different priorities and differences on the question
> of reform vs abolishment)? Which is not to disagree that there are indeed
> many other differences between King and X and Gandhi and Ambedkar...
> I must add thought that Malcolm X and King were also very much pitted against
> each other at some point (though at another level they were working towards
> the same goals)- Malcolm X compared King to the loyal slave ("the house
> slave" I think he called it) who does exactly what the master hopes he will
> do and helps the master oppress the other slaves ("the field slaves").....and
> to some extent he had a point because we can't exactly say that the civil
> rights movements in its moderate, Martin Luther King-dominated form has
> revolutionized race relations in the US--sure, it's become politically
> incorrect to disciminate blacks but just take a look at what happened with
> Kathrina for example and you see race relations are as bad as ever in the
> US.....in a way Martin Luther King made it possible for the establishment to
> moderate the demand for equal rights (e.g. by turning into a call for 'civil
> rights') and focus it on more symbolic issues rather than more
> substantial things. Which again is not to say I don't appreciate how the
> civil rights movements lead by King at least made racist violence taboo.
>
> On the additional points on Eurocentrism you make I agree. Btw, something
> else....you mentioned Chatterjee misinterprets Ambedkar in his The politics
> of the governed.....I'd be interested to hear more details, if you have the
> time. I'm afraid I'm not yet familiar enough with Ambedkar's thought to have
> spotted what you meant when reading Chatterjee...
>
> Luisa
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: jenny rowena <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, 5 October, 2008 21:13:25
> Subject: [GreenYouth] Re: Readings of Gandhi
>
> Luisa, a very late response
>
> eurocentric thought, often in india,
> gets recirculated as the most efficient academic philosophy.
> immediately taken up by everyone without even a whimper of protest..
>
> I would not compare Martin Luther King - Malcolm X to Ambedkar -Gandhi, ever =
> as these two people shared similar goals.
> in the case of ambedkar-gandhi, they were pitted one against another
> and were like two entirely different pressures on the new nation that was
> forming.
> Gandhi won - as he had most national leaders on his side, too -
> and we got this nation as we have it now..
>
> and one more thing is... western intellectuals are also being helped greatly
> by the
> dogmas that inter/national indian scholars are constantly reproducing.
>
> jenny
>
> On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 6:27 PM, Luisa Steur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Dear Jenny,
> I totally agree....and what's more, Ghandi also continues to be exported from
> India (by its elite) as the best thing India has to offer the world in terms
> of political philosophy. At my university here in Budapest there will be a
> "Ghandi conference" on 1-3 December and it is absolutely frustrating to see
> that there's not a single critical presentation lined up for it. Nobody
> outside of India seems to have heard of Dr. Ambedkar--while most people who
> celebrate for example Martin Luther King's thought (who was inspired by
> Ghandi) do know Malcolm X, the radical counter-part of King (somewhat
> comparable--though of course in a totally different context--to Ambedkar as
> the radical counter-part of Ghandi).
> Well, I guess Western intellectuals just want to believe in the dogma of
> non-violence as an easy solution to all kind of difficult dilemmas of
> resistance...and if they were to actually read dr. Ambedkar, this
> comfortable, absolutist moral solution might be shattered. The lack of
> attention by Western intellectuals to the critical debate in India on
> Ghandi's legacy seems to me a clear case of Eurocentrism however.
> Luisa
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: jenny rowena <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
>
> Sent: Saturday, 4 October, 2008 9:46:12
> Subject: [GreenYouth] Re: Readings of Gandhi
>
> Thanks Venu'ettan and Luisa for your posts.
>
> (Its strange that there was no response so far to what Venugopal has written
> on Gandhi. It is even more strange that in this post-Chengara age also
> there can still be a seminar on Gandhi's position
> without a single mention of the oppressive caste system that he has
> personally and politically helped to perpetuate. .!!!)
>
> Actually all the casteist "truths" about Gandhi, as pointed out by Venugopal,
> does not seem to disturb India's most enlightened intellectuals.
> This was visible to many of us, when a seminar on Gandhi was organized
> a few years ago in Hyderabad, and Gandhi was presented as the
> best thing to have happened to alternate, intellectual thought.
>
> However, some of us cannot ever forget that Gandhi is the spiritual
> and moral leader of the Savarna Hindu community that took over power from the
> British and has been ruling us both culturally and politically after they
> left..
>
> As responsible intellectuals, we should be exorcising the ghost
> of Gandhi from the mind of this nation - the ghost which still sees
> to it that this nation remains Savarna and Hindu resulting in so much
> suffering day by day, as we are all witness to ..
>
> We need to do some serious new kind of thinking in this manner,
> along the lines of Ambedkar and later Dalit Bahujan scholars
> like G Aloysius.
>
> and if as Luisa said, anarchism also signifies social change,
> Gandhi should be seen as someone who prevented it,
> with his charisma and inspired Hindu political will.
>
> regards
> jenny
>
> ps: And its high time we find some space for categories concerning identity,
> - such as gender, caste,religion, sexuality, etc -
> along side/withinMacro Marxist categories like STATE.
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 4:54 PM, venukm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> THE SATANIC VERSES FROM GANDHI
> - extracted from various sources
>
> If the Shudras (low castes) leave their ancestral profession and take
> up others, ambition will rouse in them and their peace of mind will be
> spoiled. Even their family peace will be disturbed.
> (Hind Swaraj).
>
> I believe in Varnashrama (caste system) which is the law of life. The
> law of Varna (color and / or caste) is nothing but the law of
> conservation of energy. Why should my son not be scavenger if I am
> one?
> (Harijan, 3-6-1947).
>
> He (Shudra, low caste) may not be called a Brahmin (uppermost caste),
> though he (Shudra) may have all the qualities of a Brahmin in this
> birth. And it is a good thing for him (Shudra) not to arrogate a Varna
> (caste) to
> which he is not born. It is a sign of true humility.
> (Young India, 11-24-1927).
>
> According to Hindu belief, he who practices a profession which does
> not belong to him by birth, does violence to himself and becomes a
> degraded being by not living up to the Varna (caste) of his birth.
> (Young India, 11-14-1927).
>
> As years go by, the conviction is daily growing upon me that Varna
> (caste) is the law of man's being, and therefore, caste is necessary
> for Christians and Muslims as it has been necessary for Hinduism, and
> has been its saving grace.
> (Speech at Trivandrum, (Collection of Speeches), Ramanath Suman
> (1932)).
>
> I would resist with my life the separation of "Untouchables" from the
> caste Hindus. The problems of the "Untouchable" community is of
> comparatively little importance.
> (London Round Table Conference 1931.)
>
> I call myself a Snatana man, one who firmly believes in the caste
> system.
> (Dharma Manthan, p 4).
>
> I believe in caste division determined by birth and the very root of
> caste division lies in birth.
> (Varna Vyavastha, p 76-77).
>
> The four castes and the four stages of life are things to be attained
> by birth alone.
> (Dharma Manthan, p 5).
>
> Caste means the predetermination of a man's profession. Caste implies
> that a man must practice only the profession of his ancestors for his
> livelihood.
> (Varna Vyavstha, p 28, 56, 68).
>
> Shudra only serves the higher castes as a matter of religious duty and
> who will never own any property. The gods will shower down flowers on
> him.
> (Varna Vyavastha, p 15).
>
> I have noticed that the very basis of our thought have been severely
> shaken by Western civilization which is the creation of the Satan.
> (Dharma Manthan, p 65).
>
> How is it possible that the Antyaja (outcastes) should have the right
> to enter all the existing temples? As long as the law of caste and
> karma has the chief place in the Hindu religion, to say that every
> Hindu can enter every temple is a thing that is not possible today.
> (Gandhi Sikshan, Vol. 11, p 132).
>
> There are I am sorry to say, many Hindu temples in our midst in this
> country, which are no better than brothels. The caste system can't be
> said to be bad because it does not allow inter-dining and inter-
> marriages in different castes.
> (Gandhi by Shiru, p129).
>
> The caste system, in my opinion, has a scientific basis. Reason does
> not revolt against it. It has disadvantages. Caste creates a social
> and moral restraint - I can find no reason for their abolition. To
> abolish caste System is to demolish Hinduism. There is nothing to
> fight against the Varnasharma (caste system). I don't believe the
> caste system to be an odious and vicious dogma. It has its limitations
> and defects, but there is nothing sinful about it.
> (Harijan, 1933).
>
> Presented by:
> BSS
> NHQ:
> 304 Mandakini Enclave,
> Alaknanda,
> New Delhi-110019 (India)
> M- 09312237353
>
> posted by Mission Media at 7:21 PM
> 0 Comments:
>
> On Oct 3, 3:43 pm, Luisa Steur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > To argue that Ghandi was an anarchist is to empty anarchism of all
>
> ...
>
> read more »
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