as far as this dictum goes Narendra Modi and praveen thogadia may be the ultimate Gandhians. take modi's statement on the spiritual salvation of manual scavngers. TRuly gandhian to the core.
On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Luisa Steur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear Dileep, > > If we following your kind of reasoning we might as well call the terrorists > of 9/11 Gandhian because they were "clinging to the truth they had found" > (satyagraha, right?). They happened to be doing so in a pretty violent way, > but if Gandhi can be qualified an anarchist just because he dreamt of > small-scale village-level democracy-- even if at the same time he wanted to > uphold the caste system (absolutely-un-anarchist)-- then we might as well > call those terrorists Ghandian....i.e. it makes no sense to me. > > Also...the quotes you gave that Nizam based his linking of Gandhi to > anarchism on (thanks for those btw)...I am a bit suspicious of Gandhi's idea > that " society based on nonviolence can only consist of groups settled in > villages in which voluntary cooperation is the condition of dignified and > peaceful existence." .........the suspicion lies in "voluntary"...is it the > Gandhian kind of "voluntary", the kind where Gandhi for example goes on > hunger strike untill you "voluntarily" (under the enormous weight of > public opinion) abide by his ideas? The kind of village society where > everybody believes in the goodness of the caste system (and where thus > dalits still do all the menial work)? > > Also, Gandhi's reference to "pure anarchy"...the context in which he said > this is lacking, it's not even clear whether he refers to anarchy as in > anarchism, the political movement, or as in the common-sense notion of the > collapse of social order. Plus, Gandhi was very good at making these very > ambiguous statements that could be interpreted in just about any way (maybe > that's why he was so popular). So I'm not convinced. > > Also I agree with most of the others who have taken part in this discussion > that this attempt to see the Chengara struggle as Gandhian is drowning the > actual message of the struggle--silencing it almost as badly as one could do > by calling the struggle Communist, though again if we follow your way of > reasoning we could call easily call the Chengara struggle Communist because > it demands land for peasants and workers and because I've heard this one man > struggling at Chengara (on one of the films about Chengara) say that "the > Communists thaught us about the French revolution, they taught us about > Chicago...now we are doing exactly that". > Just for clarity's sake: I would *not* analyze the Chengara struggle as a > Marxist struggle, that would be doing it a lot of violence. I am just trying > to make a point that to label a struggle you need to look at it as an > integrated whole and look at the emerging ideology of the people struggling > rather than some loose references they might make here or there to some > other political currents. > > Luisa > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Dileep Raj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, 6 October, 2008 7:00:55 > Subject: [GreenYouth] Re: Chengara: Is It Satyagraha? ( Forget Gandhi while > speaking about Satyagraha!!!) > > Satyagraha (literally) means clinging to the truth one has found > > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 10:19 AM, ranju radha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> pls elaborate nisar's take on satyagraha? >> what is satyagraha? and how it s relevant in applying it n chengara >> >> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 9:20 AM, Dileep Raj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> >>> HI, >>> I am pasting Jenny's mail on Chengara struggle at the bottom of this >>> thread. >>> To make the terrain clear, let me clarify why I want Gandhi (the >>> historical person) to be forgotten in this new thread. >>> >>> If the attempt in the other thread by some friends was to convince all >>> that Gandhi >>> as an actor is historically not recommendable and Ambedkar is more >>> acceptable, i personally have nothing against it. >>> >>> but in order to reject certain principles ( even if those are invented by >>> Gandhi) we need more reasons . >>> Is there somethinng inherently doubtful about them/Then that should be >>> visible to everybody. thus I insisted on providing reasons. >>> If somebody tell why it is unacceptable, there is scope for debate. >>> Otherwise , the exclusivist attitude will >>> demand the other to accept ones terms .which means the end of >>> communication.Are there terms in between all of us? can we temporarily give >>> up our own terms? >>> >>> Jenny, I am still sticking to the role of reporter in this mail. I find >>> some scope for debate betwween your take and Nizar's position. >>> So, let me first explore it before articulating my own position. >>> >>> The reasons given by Nizar to qualify Chengara struggle as satyagraha >>> were the following. >>> 1.They have violated the law. >>> 2.They are fiercely holding on to what they have found as truth. >>> 3.They have consciously opted self injury instead of injury on others. >>> 4.this existential dimention, that they are ready to hold on to truth >>> unto death , is different from other struggles. >>> 5.This is satyagraha. >>> 6.The point you raise, that, it is not a choice but forced situation, >>> doesn't nullify such a proposition. >>> 7.Satyagraha, even in gandhi's imagination, was the tool of >>> oppressed/powerlwess. It is not the first step, >>> but final step, when all attempts at negotiating failed. >>> 8.It is not necessary that activists in Chengara should opt this form. >>> They could become violent or join other political parties. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jenny: >>> >>> A few lines about the difference between non-violent resistance and >>> Gandhian Satyagraha and why Chengara does not fit the bill >>> >>> - Non-violent resistance, tries to attain a political goal without >>> averting to violence and yet at the same time putting pressure on >>> governments and other authorities through various means like picketing, >>> campaigning, consiousness raising, etc.. >>> In this the need is to forcefully gain, procure, reach, a certain goal >>> which is considered to be socially just and which is politically empowering >>> to subjugated groups. >>> >>> - Gandhian Sathyagraha in Gandhi's own words "is a kind of truth-force or >>> love-force or soul-force." >>> Here the "pursuit of truth did not admit of violence being inflicted on >>> one's opponent" and he would instead be weaned from error by patience and >>> sympathy. >>> Here, patience means self-suffering. And the doctrine came to mean >>> vindication of truth, not by infliction of suffering on the opponent, but on >>> oneself. >>> >>> In Chengara, nothing of this sort is/was happening. The suffering that is >>> happening in Chengara is not a choice. It is not to convert the opponent. >>> The threat of suicide is not used to hurt oneself, but because as people in >>> Chengara have already said, they cannot return to their even worse lives. >>> >>> See the whole point is this.... >>> >>> An upper caste person like Gandhi, is giving up so much of a great life - >>> including his clothes, his meat eating habits, sex, etc etc - to fight the >>> British. He is choosing TRUTH over material comforts and this TRUTH clothes >>> him and satisfies him and that becomes his moral weapon. >>> >>> An agitating person in Chengara (and in many other spheres too) is not >>> anywhere like this. They are not giving up something - going to suffer >>> something - so as to gain something better - NO. They are always already >>> placed within suffering due to social injustice and they >>> are looking for a political way out. Without patience and with anger. >>> >>> This cliched urge to look at all this in the Gandhian mode, tells us >>> nothing about the political passions surrouding this new struggle, which >>> needs new ways of understanding, and which also needs to be seen in the way >>> it wants to be seen...as a continuation of the Ayyankali and Ambedkarite >>> politics.. >>> -- >>> Dileep R I thuravoor >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > -- > Dileep R I thuravoor > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Green Youth Movement" group. 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