flow of dollar/money could be for many purposes/reasons. sometimes it d be 2 support tibet; sometime to oppose china (it could be for both) both have its own relvance. i find no reason to support chinese imperialism.
the significance of the tibetan freedom movement can't be undermined just bz of the flow of dollar. accepting the claim there could be a hidden US agenda against the chinese. As an Indian i m against both chinese and US imperialism. and support tibetan freedom movement. if i send my part of donation in indian rupees as aid it d to support the tibetan movement and to oppose chinese imperialism. On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 12:21 PM, bobinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I was just wondering whether anybody has comments on the $s coming to aid > the Tibetan cause. Is that to support the cause or to oppose China ? > > oh, yea, I was just reading > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/21/nic-report-america-china > > > > > 2008/11/17 sukumaran kp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >> >> I strongly support Dalai lama and the tibetan people for their freedom >> struggle. >> >> --- On Mon, 17/11/08, ranju radha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> > From: ranju radha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > Subject: [GreenYouth] Re: An Open Letter to the Dalai Lama >> > To: [email protected] >> > Date: Monday, 17 November, 2008, 2:37 PM >> > history is always read for the present. >> > >> > and dont essentialise and exclude "buddhism" from >> > the wordly affairs. Dalai >> > lama belongs to one sect of buddhism only. The politics of >> > Buddhism does >> > take care of capitalism/communism/socialism. It s not just >> > a 'religion'. If >> > u take out the political essencse from it, buddhism wud >> > die. so dont >> > romantise it. >> > >> > and going back is a reactionary ideal. It should be discard >> > for the sake of >> > democratic ideals. so, tibetians will decide their fate, >> > not China, me or >> > any one else (though in many cases the outside world >> > decides the fate). >> > >> > it is nations (in the Western sense) demand nationalism, >> > not people. >> > and in our context(India), it s the nationalism that >> > imagines a nation. >> > >> > i m least bothered abt an international state. even if that >> > happens there >> > will emerge nationalisms.. (i m ill equipped to theorise it >> > now) >> > but one thing is, the meta narrative f nation and >> > nationalism is a hegemonic >> > universalisign project and many a communities trapped >> > within that >> > imagination always revolt. >> > these aspirations are attempts to create new universalities >> > and redefine >> > power relations (obviously creating its own in the >> > process).. such dynamism >> > gives life to the process of nation-making. sociatial >> > relations get redefned >> > in the process, thereby evloving better outcomes, >> > hopefully. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 10:02 AM, sreenivas v.p >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > History has to be read in the light of the present >> > .Otherwise it has no >> > > meaning . >> > > >> > > If you are reading history as a collection of >> > independent facts , it will >> > > not be any useful to us . It does not make any >> > meaning that Tibet was part >> > > of china hundreds of years back so it has to be >> > returned to them now . >> > > Buddists are a group of peace loving people who lead a >> > simple life . Let us >> > > not feed communism or capitalism into them . in this >> > light , we need to >> > > regard tibet as an independent territory . same is the >> > case with kashmir as >> > > well . >> > > >> > > being patriotic is a stupid idea but here the fight is >> > between nations not >> > > between people . >> > > china means beijing and not chinese people . >> > > >> > > are u talking about an international state ?, till >> > such a state comes into >> > > place , there will be nationalism and we will have to >> > support that to a >> > > certain extent . >> > > >> > > regards >> > > Sreenivas >> > > bangalore >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > --- On *Mon, 17/11/08, ranju radha >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>* wrote: >> > > >> > > From: ranju radha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > > Subject: [GreenYouth] Re: An Open Letter to the Dalai >> > Lama >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Date: Monday, 17 November, 2008, 8:54 AM >> > > >> > > civilians all over the world belive or are made to >> > belive that we live >> > > here peacefully because there is military at the >> > boarder. chinese people may >> > > be feeling the same way. >> > > >> > > but given the context of hindu colonisation taking a >> > violent turn and >> > > moving into the genocidal terror mode, one can't >> > always belive such myths. >> > > >> > > Are we not living peacefully bz the newspaper-walla >> > puts the newspaper at >> > > our door steps on time and therby, initiating us to >> > the world around us, >> > > make us belive in peace and lead us to demand a >> > peaceful world ? Yes we are. >> > > It is not only the jawans in kargil but also the >> > newspaper boys in the >> > > streets, t make us 'belive' that we live in >> > peace. >> > > but are we not paying a price for that? Living >> > peacefully in a country of >> > > violence demands alot more slavish/blind belief. >> > Belief that make us believe >> > > that we cant live without belief. We end up victims of >> > that belief. but >> > > sometimes, or most of the time we tend to believe in >> > it. nationalisms are >> > > created out of such beliefs. patriotism is the symptm. >> > > boundaries are fuzzy; history can delete it with just >> > a stroke >> > > We as a trapped rat in the boundaries of nation >> > clamour for more strong >> > > boundaries >> > > but boundary again is a myth created and re-created in >> > our minds. the >> > > beliefs make us create such strong boundaries in our >> > mind. can we break it? >> > > let us try once. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 1:04 AM, bobinson >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > > >> > >> >Your Holiness, even during the period when >> > China was yet to become an >> > >> economic powerhouse, you could not persuade >> > Buddhist majority countries like >> > >> Thailand or Sri Lanka to boycott China. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> During my recent visit to north east states I >> > happen to talk to lot of >> > >> Indian Buddhists. Not a huge number, hence they >> > may not represent the >> > >> Buddhist community but still I was surprised to >> > find that none of them >> > >> supported Dalai lama. >> > >> >> > >> Another experience is witnessing the chineese >> > demonstration in ottawa, >> > >> Canada immediately after Dalai Lama's visit to >> > Ottawa. ( >> > >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/freemind/2412774172/) >> > I was told by the >> > >> chineese crowd that during a recent tibetan >> > demonstration chineese embassy >> > >> was attacked and flags were burned. I was told the >> > similar facts about the >> > >> visit and violence caused by the same by a >> > Canadian photographer also. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> I am not making conclusions. Simply mentioning few >> > facts. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 10:48 PM, sreenivas v.p >> > < >> > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > >> >> > >>> >> > >>> i support Dalai lama and the tibetan people >> > for their freedom >> > >>> struggle. expanding territory is one of the >> > agenda of chinese communist >> > >>> party and they are following it religiously >> > which resulted attacking >> > >>> nieghboring countries including russia and >> > india. >> > >>> >> > >>> some communists were laughing saying that >> > indian soldiers ran away >> > >>> fearing chinese bomb tack during 1962 war . >> > these people should not forget >> > >>> that we live here peacefully for the fact that >> > our soldiers are struggling >> > >>> for life in the border. >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> sreenivas >> > >>> bangalore >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> --- On *Sun, 16/11/08, Bobby Kunhu >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>* wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>> From: Bobby Kunhu >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > >>> Subject: [GreenYouth] An Open Letter to the >> > Dalai Lama >> > >>> To: >> > "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" < >> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>, >> > "Greenyouth" < >> > >>> [email protected]>, >> > "canopeners" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > >>> Date: Sunday, 16 November, 2008, 7:25 AM >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > http://winnowed.blogspot.com/2008/11/open-letter-to-dalai-lama.html >> > Saturday, >> > >>> 15 November 2008 An Open Letter to the Dalai >> > Lama< >> http://winnowed.blogspot.com/2008/11/open-letter-to-dalai-lama.html> >> > >>> Your Holiness, >> > >>> >> > >>> I hope this letter finds you in good health. >> > You must be very busy right >> > >>> now, Your Holiness, preparing to attend the >> > six day meet you have convened >> > >>> for members of the Tibetan Government-in-Exile >> > in Dharamshala from 17 >> > >>> November 2008 to discuss the future course of >> > action for Tibet. I assume you >> > >>> are not in the best of spirits, Your Holiness. >> > You underwent a surgery for >> > >>> removal of a gall bladder stone last month. >> > You have publicly >> > stated<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7693052.stm>that >> > you have lost hope of reaching a settlement with China >> > through >> > >>> dialogue. Ever since March 1959 when you left >> > Tibet and went to India, you >> > >>> have been trying to obtain a better deal for >> > Tibet and its people. You have >> > >>> not only always stuck to the path of >> > non-violence, but you have also >> > >>> insisted that your followers do the same. All >> > of this is admirable until one >> > >>> realises that, as you recently admitted, you >> > have not managed to wring a >> > >>> single compromise out of China. >> > >>> >> > >>> Your Holiness, are you worried that history >> > will judge you harshly for >> > >>> not having achieved anything much for the >> > people of Tibet, despite >> > >>> struggling for almost 50 years? I don't >> > have an answer to that, Your >> > >>> Holiness. Before we respond to that question, >> > why don't we take a quick look >> > >>> at Tibet's history? >> > >>> >> > >>> The Tibetan language belongs to the >> > Tibeto-Burman branch of the >> > >>> Sino-Tibetan language family. Tibetan is as >> > much distinct from Mandarin as >> > >>> Burmese is. Tibet has always been an >> > independent country. In the early 9th >> > >>> century, Buddhism reached Tibet after a >> > Tibetan king invited Buddhist >> > >>> preachers and artisans from India. There have >> > been occasions when Tibetan >> > >>> kings have defeated Chinese rulers in battle. >> > From the 13th century onwards, >> > >>> Tibet was under the control of the Mongols who >> > also controlled vast >> > >>> stretches of China. It was when the Mongols >> > controlled Tibet that Buddhism >> > >>> spread to Mongolia. In the seventeenth >> > century, the fifth Dalai Lama became >> > >>> the spiritual and temporal head of the whole >> > of Tibet. Tibet has had wars >> > >>> with the kingdoms of Ladakh, Bhutan and Nepal, >> > losing many battles and >> > >>> winning a few. >> > >>> >> > >>> Since the early eighteen century, the Manchu >> > rulers of China have made >> > >>> claims on Tibet. However, China went into a >> > period of decline after that and >> > >>> Tibet managed to assert its independence. In >> > the early 20th century, the >> > >>> British led a few expeditions into Tibet in >> > order to prevent any Russian >> > >>> influence in the region. The British forced >> > the Tibetans to sign a trade >> > >>> treaty which opened Tibet's borders to >> > British India. In 1907, Britain also >> > >>> entered into a treaty with Russia which >> > recognised Chinese suzerainty over >> > >>> Tibet. >> > >>> >> > >>> After China was defeated by Japan in a series >> > of battles in the early >> > >>> twentieth century, Chinese control over Tibet >> > waned. Britain, Tibet and >> > >>> China held negotiations in Simla in 1913 and >> > 1914 to resolve the boundaries >> > >>> between India, China and Tibet. The >> > negotiations broke down and Henry >> > >>> McMahon, the then British Indian foreign >> > secretary and the chief British >> > >>> negotiator, unilaterally demarcated the >> > Indo-Tibetan border. Approximately >> > >>> 9,000 square kilometres of traditional Tibetan >> > territory in southern Tibet >> > >>> (the Tawang region) was given to India (which >> > now forms the Indian state of >> > >>> Arunachal Pradesh). McMahon also recognised >> > Chinese suzerainty over Tibet >> > >>> and affirmed that Tibet was a part of China. >> > China did not agree to this >> > >>> Simla convention and hence, this treaty became >> > a bilateral agreement between >> > >>> India and Tibet. >> > >>> >> > >>> Immediately after the communist takeover of >> > China, the communists took >> > >>> over parts of eastern Tibet and initiated a >> > process of land reforms. >> > >>> Landlords were publicly humiliated and at >> > times executed. However, the >> > >>> traditional Tibetan aristocracy was allowed to >> > remain in place till public >> > >>> unrest in eastern Tibet led to a military >> > crackdown, which in turn led to >> > >>> the Lhasa uprising. It was at that time, Your >> > Holiness, that you fled to >> > >>> India. >> > >>> >> > >>> Your Holiness, at the time of the communist >> > takeover of Tibet, Tibet was >> > >>> a corrupt and undemocratic theocracy. Monks >> > held all the powers and abused >> > >>> them. The peasants were oppressed and lived in >> > extreme poverty. One of the >> > >>> reasons the Chinese were able to takeover >> > Tibet so easily was because it was >> > >>> a backward, feudal and theocratic state. The >> > blame for this should lie >> > >>> primarily on the Buddhist clergy which kept >> > Tibet in the dark ages. Your >> > >>> Holiness and your predecessors were always at >> > the helm of such a state of >> > >>> affairs. >> > >>> >> > >>> After Your Holiness came over to India, you >> > set up a Government-in-Exile >> > >>> consisting of a legislative assembly (the >> > Assembly of Tibetan People's >> > >>> Deputies), an executive (the Kashag), and a >> > judiciary (the Tibetan Supreme >> > >>> Justice Commission). You have categorised the >> > Government-in-Exile as a >> > >>> constitutional monarchy. Elections were held >> > and exiled Tibetans voted. You >> > >>> have gone into semi-retirement and if rumours >> > are correct, you would like to >> > >>> retire permanently. Considering the fact that >> > prior to the Chinese take-over >> > >>> Tibet was a full-fledged theocracy, I feel >> > that you have done an admirable >> > >>> job in injecting a decent dose of democracy >> > into the Tibetan community. >> > >>> Since almost all Tibetans are Buddhists, not >> > many Tibetans have objected to >> > >>> having you, the Dalai Lama, a living >> > incarnation of the Lord Buddha, as the >> > >>> head of the Tibetan Government-in-Exile. This >> > would mean there is a shade of >> > >>> theocracy in the Government-in-Exile, but I >> > feel this was inevitable. >> > >>> >> > >>> Your Holiness, your emphasis on non-violence >> > and peaceful negotiations >> > >>> won you not only many admirers all over the >> > world, but also the Nobel Peace >> > >>> Prize in 1989. Until you threw in the towel >> > last week, you have always >> > >>> stated that you would be happy with greater >> > autonomy under Chinese authority >> > >>> (on par with what Hong Kong has) and would not >> > press for independence. >> > >>> However, it cannot be said Your Holiness, that >> > all Tibetans have been happy >> > >>> with your approach. Organisations such as the >> > Tibetan Independence Movement, >> > >>> the Students For a Free Tibet led by exiled >> > Tibetans and supported by >> > >>> celebrities like Richard Gere have insisted >> > that Tibet should be >> > >>> independent. They have rightly said that China >> > has been diluting Tibetan >> > >>> culture by flooding Tibet with Han Chinese. >> > Tibet's natural wealth, >> > >>> especially its forest wealth, has been >> > eviscerated. Most importantly, they >> > >>> say that Tibet has historically been an >> > independent state. >> > >>> >> > >>> Your Holiness, it must not be forgotten that >> > Chinese rule has brought >> > >>> some benefits for Tibet. There are a lot more >> > roads and railways and >> > >>> industries, though it can be argued that all >> > these developments further >> > >>> Chinese exploitation of Tibet and facilitate >> > Han Chinese expansion into >> > >>> Tibet. We all know that sadly, in Tibet, the >> > Han Chinese outnumber the >> > >>> Tibetans. >> > >>> >> > >>> Your Holiness, even though you have won >> > international acclaim and >> > >>> admiration, you have not been able to persuade >> > a single country to take >> > >>> concrete measures for Tibet's >> > independence. Measures such as imposing >> > >>> sanctions against China and not trading with >> > China. Please don't laugh at >> > >>> me, Your Holiness. I do realise that the mere >> > thought of not trading with >> > >>> China sounds silly. Who can afford to not >> > trade with China? It is not only >> > >>> nation states who can't afford to >> > antagonise China. A few months ago, the >> > >>> London Metropolitan University awarded Your >> > Holiness a doctorate in >> > >>> recognition of your outstanding achievements >> > in promoting global peace. The >> > >>> threat of a boycott by Chinese students forced >> > this British university to express >> > >>> regret for any offence >> > >>> >> > <http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/jul/09/highereducation.uk >> >caused >> > >>> to the Chinese government. >> > >>> >> > >>> Were things always like this Your Holiness? >> > No, Your Holiness. It is only >> > >>> in the last ten years that China became so >> > powerful. Twenty five years ago, >> > >>> China was an unknown country, tolerated >> > because it was a counterweight to >> > >>> the Soviet Union. Your Holiness, for a couple >> > of decade after you went over >> > >>> to India, there were many armed groups of >> > Tibetans carrying out guerrilla >> > >>> operations against China. These were not on a >> > very large scale and were >> > >>> funded by the CIA. However, they slowly died >> > down due to various reasons. >> > >>> One of the reasons was that India slowly >> > distanced itself from the USA and >> > >>> became friendly with the USSR, which meant >> > that the CIA could no longer use >> > >>> India as a base for attacks on China. Your >> > Holiness, I wonder if your >> > >>> insistence on non-violence as the only option >> > has been mainly because you've >> > >>> known that neither the USA nor India would >> > provide the quantum of commitment >> > >>> and support that would make it feasible for >> > Tibetans to fight China. >> > >>> >> > >>> Your Holiness, even during the period when >> > China was yet to become an >> > >>> economic powerhouse, you could not persuade >> > Buddhist majority countries like >> > >>> Thailand or Sri Lanka to boycott China. Even >> > though Buddhists believe that >> > >>> you are a living incarnation of Lord Buddha, >> > you have not been able to build >> > >>> up any following within the Buddhists among >> > the Han Chinese. >> > >>> >> > >>> Your Holiness, would things have been >> > different if you have played a less >> > >>> key role right from the time you went over to >> > India? I doubt it Your >> > >>> Holiness. Your personality and charisma gave >> > the Tibetan cause the sort of >> > >>> publicity and respectability that no secular >> > leader could have obtained. It >> > >>> is tempting to speculate on what could have >> > been achieved if a secular >> > >>> person who believed in using all options had >> > headed the Tibetan >> > >>> Government-in-Exile right from day one. At a >> > time when China was fighting >> > >>> the USSR, could such a person have obtained >> > independence for Tibet through >> > >>> armed action? I doubt it, Your Holiness, but >> > we will never know. >> > >>> >> > >>> Your Holiness, I believe that the head of the >> > Tibetan Government-in-Exile >> > >>> must not be the Dalai Lama. It must be headed >> > by a secular individual. If >> > >>> you are to head this Government-in-Exile, it >> > becomes a theocracy and there >> > >>> is no place in the modern world for a >> > theocracy. However, the Tibetan >> > >>> movement still needs your help. You must not >> > retire completely, though you >> > >>> have expressed your wish to do so. You must >> > work with the Tibetan >> > >>> Government-in-Exile in order to keep the >> > Tibetan cause in the limelight. >> > >>> History has been unkind to Tibet and its >> > people. You have, in my opinion, >> > >>> performed a stellar role in fighting for their >> > rights. I don't think history >> > >>> will judge you harshly. >> > >>> >> > >>> Where do we go from here, Your Holiness? I >> > don't believe that there is a >> > >>> magic solution to the Tibetan issue. I wonder >> > what advice you will give your >> > >>> fellow delegates at the forthcoming >> > conference. >> > >>> >> > >>> There will be some hotheads who will want >> > armed action against China. >> > >>> Around eight months ago, in March 2008 there >> > were orchestrated riots in >> > >>> Tibet. Nothing much was achieved, but it did >> > scare the Chinese government a >> > >>> lot, since it was so close to the Olympics. >> > Next time your followers try >> > >>> something like that, the Chinese government >> > might not be as restrained, >> > >>> since the Olympics are now over and the >> > Chinese couldn't give two hoots >> > >>> about public opinion. >> > >>> >> > >>> I assume muscular lobbying is an option. The >> > Tibetan cause has supporters >> > >>> and well-wishers all over the world. Your >> > Holiness, things can change very >> > >>> quickly. If the current economic recession >> > were to continue, China will not >> > >>> be able to provide employment for many of its >> > restless millions. If economic >> > >>> unrest were to spread in China, which now has >> > a vast rich-poor divide, the >> > >>> Tibetan Government-in-Exile might be able to >> > bargain a certain degree of >> > >>> autonomy for itself. There might even be a >> > fortuitous turn of events which >> > >>> enables Tibetans to get their country back. >> > >>> >> > >>> I wish Your Holiness and the people of Tibet >> > all the best for the future. >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> With warm and sincere regards >> > >>> >> > >>> Winnowed, A blogger from the World Wide Web >> > >>> >> > >>> -- >> > >>> Bobby Kunhu >> > http://community.eldis.org/myshkin/Blog/ >> > >>> >> > >>> ------------------------------ >> > >>> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! >> > Invite them now. >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > < >> http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_messenger_6/*http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >> > >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > >> http://freebird.in >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> ------------------------------ >> > >> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! >> > Invite them now. >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > < >> http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_messenger_6/*http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> >> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to >> http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ >> >> >> > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Green Youth Movement" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/greenyouth?hl=en-GB -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
