---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Sukla Sen <sukla....@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 13:43
Subject: Re: [issuesonline_worldwide] *Final Balakot Bluff Busted!?* 'Did
India Shoot Down a Pakistani Jet? U.S. Count Says No.: New Delhi and
Islamabad had conflicting accounts of a February dogfight.'
To: issueonline <issuesonline_worldw...@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: IHRO <i...@yahoogroups.com>



Before going to the post below, evidently, from a Sanghi, let's recount.

There're, in essence, two controversies.
Balakot and F-16.

Here's a synopsis.


AA.
I. Pakistan didn't allow journalists to visit the madrasa for a month.
II. Journalists did, soon after the strikes, visit sites *pretty close* to
the madrasa and the alleged actual spots of strike. Talked to the villagers.
The Reuters and, then, BBC carried the reports alongwith visuals and also
audio-visual.
III. Analyses of, at least two sets of, satellite imageries by independent
foreign experts ruled out any damage to the structures.
IV. After a month, Pakistan has arranged a trip of (foreign) journalists to
the madrasa itself.
The visit has reconfirmed the conclusions drawn from our earlier visits and
the analyses of satellite imageries.
There's not one contrary report from the foreign, third party, sources.
V. My *guess* is that the time gap of one month was used by Pakistan to
erase the footprints of a terror camp.

VI. From the Indian side:
The PM  says that 130 crore Indians are my proof!
The IAF Chief says that the proofs are blowing in the wind!
These are trumpeted as proofs.
Believers consider it sacrilegious to think otherwise.

BB.
I. India claims to have downed an F-16 jet on the Pakistan side.
II. Pakistan denies.
III. India on return of the captured pilot Abhinandan, produces his
testimony to the effect that he had downed an F-16.
IV. On his way back from Pakistan, still in Pakistan, Abhinandan had, on
camera, clearly stated (in Hindi) that ***he had been downed while looking
for "target"***.  That speaks for itself.
V. India asks the US to investigate whether Pakistan had used F-16s in its
adversarial operations against India.
VI. No response from the US is reported.
VII. Now, a report has been carried by the web version of a US (unofficial)
journal, of considerable repute, that the US has audited the stock of the
F-16s, all from the only original source US, in Pakistan and found not one
missing.
VIII. India just reiterates its claim.
No substantiation.
No direct reference to the FP report, by now widely reproduced in Indian
media, even if tagged on to the IAF's reiteration of claim.

The choice before the believers is, of course, too clear.

Btw, the actual fact is that from within India reasoned rebuttals of the
GoI claims have emanated.
As far as professional analysts are concerned, Mukul Kesavan and, now,
Girish Sahane are two examples known to me.

Those, who have some sense at least cannot but conclude, as far as India is
concerned:

<<The net outcome: the loss of a fighter jet and a helicopter (in friendly
fire) along with precious lives.

Nothing, just nothing, tangible in return.
No meaningful damage in Balaot either.
For a comprehensive account and reasoned analysis: <
https://scroll.in/article/918686/opinion-on-balakot-and-after-real-mystery-is-how-the-indian-response-has-been-touted-as-a-triumph?fbclid=IwAR0QxrawU6JG2kfhIhW25MRabQwjYtIV-BHei8MAXUbEPV2ryrV5pm-i2P8
>.

When in the past, India had similarly suffered???
Ever???
Even if one opts to forget 1971.>>

***Now, let's come to the post below (from a Sanghi).***

Who, pray, is Wg. Commander Ijaj Ud Din???

A character in a novel, misread!?
LOL!

Who asked whom to produce him?
Why?

In any case, here's something relevant.

Sukla

Pls. visit the site for screenshots and photographs.

<<Umar told Newslaundry that Shahzaz-ud-Din was one of three sons of Air
Marshal Waseem-ud-Din, who had retired from the PAF. He claimed that apart
from multiple PAF sources, this was also confirmed to him by Air Marshal
Waseem-ud-Din’s family.

However, Newslaundry’s investigation proves these claims to be false. When
we asked Umar about it, his responses were nothing short of a U-turn.
...
Newslaundry’s investigation

So, the single source for news reports on the PAF pilot’s death and
background has been Umar’s post, which identified the pilot as
“Shahzaz-ud-Din”. Newslaundry’s investigation shows that Air Marshal Waseem
ud-Din has two sons named Waqar-ud-Din and Aleem-ud-Din. In this picture
found on Facebook, Air Marshal Waseem-ud-Din stands with his two sons.

The photo of the Air Marshal and his two sons.

According to their Facebook profiles, both sons live in the UK.
Aleem-ud-Din studies at Royal Holloway, University of London. He previously
worked with companies like Telenor—as CLM planning and design officer and
pricing executive for four years, till 2018—and Starcom Worldwide in
Pakistan. He did his Bachelor’s degree in economics from the National
University of Sciences and Technology.
...
The Air Marshal’s other son, Waqar-ud-Din, lives in Warwickshire, according
to documents accessed by Newslaundry. Since September 2015, he’s been
working as a system engineer at Jaguar Land Rover in Gaydon in
Warwickshire. Before joining Jaguar Land Rover, he worked with Tetra Pack
in Lahore as a field service engineer and project engineer for more than
three years.
...
A photograph has also been doing the rounds on social media of “Wing
Commander Shahzaz-ud-Din”. Newslaundry found pictures of a joint air force
training between China and Pakistan which took place in October 2015 at
China’s Yinchuan air base. One of the photos shows Chinese and Pakistani
Air Force pilots standing in a group photo, while another is captioned
“Pakistani fighter pilot before Chinese Su-30”.

There’s no mention of Wing Commander Shahzaz-ud-Din, but the photo has been
circulated on social media claiming to a picture of the “fallen” PAF pilot.
Yet this photo is of Group Captain Agha Mehar, a pilot with the PAF. Mehar
has approached several senior journalists in Pakistan pointing out Indian
media’s misuse of his photo.
...
The same photograph is used in this blog, which details Shahzad-ud-Din’s
“martyrdom” on February 27, using the same inaccuracies found in Khalid
Umar’s Facebook post.>>

(Extracted from below.)

What a grand hoax!
But, the mule here, couldn't even get the fictitious name right.
He may, of course, think that what's in a name when the whole thing is a
hoax.

https://www.newslaundry.com/2019/03/05/why-claims-about-the-paf-pilots-lynching-dont-add-up

Why claims about the PAF pilot’s lynching don’t add up
Air Marshal Waseem-ud-Din has two sons. Both live in the United Kingdom and
neither has served in the PAF.

By Prateek Goyal | Mar 5, 2019 35 Comments
Social Share Icon

The report of a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) pilot being lynched to death by
his own countrymen sounded straight out of a movie script. Turns out the
report—based on a singular Facebook post—may have very well been a result
of the Facebook post’s writer’s imagination.

On March 2, a Firstpost report by Praveen Swami stated that “Pakistan Air
Force Wing Commander Shahzaz-ud-Din, the F-16 pilot shot down in a dogfight
over the Nowshera sector, is reported to have been lynched by a mob who
mistook him for an Indian airman”.

On March 1, a day before the Firstpost report was published, a London-based
lawyer, Khalid Umar, had posted the exact same details of the purported
killing of a PAF pilot on Facebook. The Firstpost report cited Umar as a
source stating that he [Umar] had received this information “privately,
from individuals related to the F-16 pilot’s family”.

Like the Firstpost report, Umar identified the PAF pilot as Shahzaz-ud-Din
and stated that his father Waseem-ud-Din is an Air Marshal of the Pakistan
Air Force. Comparing Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman and
Shahzaz-ud-Din’s plight, the London-based lawyer also wrote: “Two sons of
Air Marshals fought it out mid-air up in the skies...Wg Cdr Abhinandan
(Ind) in MiG and now late Wg Cdr Shahzaz-ud-Din (Pak) in F-16. Both fell
from the skies, one could not survive.”



Umar said Shahzaz-ud-Din, who had ejected in Pakistan-occupied Jammu and
Kashmir, was “lynched (beaten mercilessly, nearly to death) by the mob who
took him as a fallen Indian”. On his identification as “our own man”, the
PAF pilot was taken to a hospital. He did not survive, Umar wrote: “Nothing
can be more heartbreaking than the untimely termination of a young life. My
heartfelt condolences to the family of Shahzaz.”

Fact or fiction: Khalid Umar’s U-turn

Apart from Swami’s report for Firstpost, other media publications also
reported on Shahzaz-ud-Din’s death. They cited either Umar's post as a
source or “media reports”. The same goes for social media posts that popped
up on the pilot.

On March 2, Newslaundry contacted Umar by telephone to verify his claims
relating to the PAF pilot’s death. Umar claimed he had received information
relating to the PAF pilot’s death “not from a single source but from
multiple PAF sources”. He said, “My sources in PAF informed me that the
F-16 was flown by Shahzaz-ud-Din. It was shot down by MiG 21 of the Indian
Air Force in aerial combat.” He added that authorities would “never accept
this” and that they had “even denied using F-16” to breach the Indian
airspace.

Umar told Newslaundry that Shahzaz-ud-Din was one of three sons of Air
Marshal Waseem-ud-Din, who had retired from the PAF. He claimed that apart
from multiple PAF sources, this was also confirmed to him by Air Marshal
Waseem-ud-Din’s family.

However, Newslaundry’s investigation proves these claims to be false. When
we asked Umar about it, his responses were nothing short of a U-turn.

Here’s what our investigation revealed: Air Marshal Waseem-ud-Din has two
sons, not three. Neither of them is in the PAF. When Newslaundry brought
this up with Umar, he said it “doesn't matter” who was in the aircraft: “It
doesn’t matter whether it was some Abbas or some Shahzaz. But someone
definitely was on it.”

Umar also stated that in a military press conference held by Indian
military officials, high-ranking representatives of the three armed
services had said that an F-16 aircraft had been shot down. “They are
saying a fact and definitely somebody must be on the aircraft and ejected
out of it. It doesn't matter who was in the aircraft, an aircraft has been
shot down and pilots have ejected out of it. You should find about them,”
he told Newslaundry.

Newslaundry’s investigation

So, the single source for news reports on the PAF pilot’s death and
background has been Umar’s post, which identified the pilot as
“Shahzaz-ud-Din”. Newslaundry’s investigation shows that Air Marshal Waseem
ud-Din has two sons named Waqar-ud-Din and Aleem-ud-Din. In this picture
found on Facebook, Air Marshal Waseem-ud-Din stands with his two sons.



The photo of the Air Marshal and his two sons.

According to their Facebook profiles, both sons live in the UK.
Aleem-ud-Din studies at Royal Holloway, University of London. He previously
worked with companies like Telenor—as CLM planning and design officer and
pricing executive for four years, till 2018—and Starcom Worldwide in
Pakistan. He did his Bachelor’s degree in economics from the National
University of Sciences and Technology.



A screenshot of Aleem-ud-Din's LinkedIn profile.

The Air Marshal’s other son, Waqar-ud-Din, lives in Warwickshire, according
to documents accessed by Newslaundry. Since September 2015, he’s been
working as a system engineer at Jaguar Land Rover in Gaydon in
Warwickshire. Before joining Jaguar Land Rover, he worked with Tetra Pack
in Lahore as a field service engineer and project engineer for more than
three years.

Waqar-ud-Din graduated from Pakistan’s Ghulam Ishaq Khan Institute of
Engineering Sciences and Technology. He did his Master’s degree in energy
and power engineering from the University of Warwick. His job record shows
that he was never in the Pakistan Air Force.



A screenshot of Waqar-ud-Din's LinkedIn profile.

These details were confirmed by several sources as well. One of them is
Taha Siddiqui, an award-winning exiled Pakistani journalist and founder of
SAFE newsrooms, a digital platform documenting media censorship in South
Asia. He told Newslaundry: “I have spoken to some people who are very close
friends of Air Marshal Waseem-ud-Din’s family and they have informed me
that both his sons are alive and live out of the country.”

Siddiqui said: “They told me that it's is a fake story."

Siddiqui, who has been critical of Pakistani Army’s media censorship in
Pakistan, currently lives in Paris. He has been living in exile following
Pakistani Army’s failed attempt to abduct him. He said, "I have been
informed by two of my PAF sources that no one has been killed and both
airplanes—F-16 and JF-17—were used. Inventory remains accounted for so it's
unlikely they lost any planes or anyone was killed."

Siddiqui added that the Pakistani media is heavily controlled by the
military. “The Pakistan military might feel if they say that someone from
their side is killed, then they will lose the higher ground they are
currently on. But as per the information provided by people close to the
family and reliable sources in PAF, this seems to be a fake story.”

A family friend of Air Marshal Waseem-ud-Din also posted on social media
that the Air Marshal has only two sons and they are not in the Pakistan Air
Force. The Dubai-based family friend tagged the Air Marshal’s wife in the
post. She wrote: "Noreen and Waseem-ud-Din have two sons none named Shahzaz
or whatever. And MA they are alive and well.”



The family friend's Facebook post.

Newslaundry tried contacting Waqar-ud-Din and Aleem-ud-Din through social
media. This story will be updated if and when they respond.

A photograph has also been doing the rounds on social media of “Wing
Commander Shahzaz-ud-Din”. Newslaundry found pictures of a joint air force
training between China and Pakistan which took place in October 2015 at
China’s Yinchuan air base. One of the photos shows Chinese and Pakistani
Air Force pilots standing in a group photo, while another is captioned
“Pakistani fighter pilot before Chinese Su-30”.

There’s no mention of Wing Commander Shahzaz-ud-Din, but the photo has been
circulated on social media claiming to a picture of the “fallen” PAF pilot.
Yet this photo is of Group Captain Agha Mehar, a pilot with the PAF. Mehar
has approached several senior journalists in Pakistan pointing out Indian
media’s misuse of his photo.


On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 23:28, sanjeev kulkarni jeevkulka...@yahoo.com
[issuesonline_worldwide] <issuesonline_worldw...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

My dear half mad and quarter fool, it was the message that we will
cross the previously inviolable Red lines if you keep using terrorism
under the nuclear umbrella that was important.  How many bullets
were fired, how many hit the target is as stupid as it gets.  And if
Pakistan did not get the message, they will get it again and again.

By the way have you produced Wg. Commander Ijaj Ud Din?
Not yet?  Too bad.  Your carefully orchestrated story has a very big
hole in it. So Yankees lose the business of weapons to the Russians it
seems. And naive anti-national will keep tom tomming irrelevant BS
just to appear busy. Wait for the next installment soon.

Sanjeev


>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "Sukla Sen sukla....@gmail.com [issuesonline_worldwide]" <
> issuesonline_worldw...@yahoogroups.com>
> *To:* issueonline <issuesonline_worldw...@yahoogroups.com>; IHRO <
> i...@yahoogroups.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, 5 April 2019 7:42 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [issuesonline_worldwide] *Final Balakot Bluff Busted!?*
> 'Did India Shoot Down a Pakistani Jet? U.S. Count Says No.: New Delhi and
> Islamabad had conflicting accounts of a February dogfight.'
>
>
> I/III. <<When the incident occurred, ***India asked the U.S. government to
> investigate whether Pakistan’s use of the F-16***
> [emphasis added] against India violated the terms of the foreign
> military sale agreements.>>
>
> II/III.. <<Vipin Narang, an associate professor of political science at
> MIT, said the way the events have unfolded may affect India’s efforts to
> deter Pakistan in the future. “As details come out, it looks worse and
> worse for the Indians,” Narang said. “It looks increasingly like India
> failed to impose significant costs on Pakistan, but lost a plane and a
> helicopter of its own in the process.”>>
>
> III. Narang should have some sense.
> Btw, he appears to be a "nationalist" hawk, advocating (or justifying?)
> India's abandonment of No First Use doctrine, as regards nuclear weapons.
>
> Never mind, if the US is good enough to be asked by the GoI to investigate
> whether Pakistan had used F-16s, it should be good enough to audit the
> stock F-16s.
>
> In any case, India has no, whatever, proof of downing an F-16.
> It just claims.
>
> The claim by the IAF/GoI of hitting targets have been negated by
> independent international technical analysists (ref..:
> <
> https://scroll.in/article/918686/opinion-on-balakot-and-after-real-mystery-is-how-the-indian-response-has-been-touted-as-a-triumph?fbclid=IwAR0QxrawU6JG2kfhIhW25MRabQwjYtIV-BHei8MAXUbEPV2ryrV5pm-i2P8
> >),
> So did the Reuters and BBC reports.
>
> It has been carried by the Indian media.
> Let the GoI rebut.
>
> IV.  Finally:
>
> "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others
> because you were born in it."
>
> George Bernard Shaw
> (Ref.: <https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/george_bernard_shaw_386924>.)
>
> Sukla
>
>
> On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 14:03, sanjeev kulkarni jeevkulka...@yahoo.com
> <jeevkulka...@yahoo..com> [issuesonline_worldwide] <
> issuesonline_worldw...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> Admitting that the 3rd generation Mig shot down 4th generation iconic F16
> is bad publicity for weapons business..  As it is Russia is selling S-400
> and Migs to many countries in spite of stiff opposition from the USA.
> Better to follow a policy of Pakistan and Indian opposition of telling
> lies rather than tell the fact and face consequences.  The thief is
> presiding
> over the court to decide if he is found guilty as charged or not.  Good
> going!  Less said the better about the IQ level of brain-dead Bengali!
>
> Sanjeev
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "Sukla Sen sukla....@gmail.com [issuesonline_worldwide]" <
> issuesonline_worldw...@yahoogroups.com>
> *To:* foil-l <foi...@insaf.net>; Say NO 2 UID Core Group <
> core-gr...@lists.nouid.in>
> *Sent:* Friday, 5 April 2019 1:42 PM
> *Subject:* [issuesonline_worldwide] *Final Balakot Bluff Busted!?* 'Did
> India Shoot Down a Pakistani Jet? U.S. Count Says No.: New Delhi and
> Islamabad had conflicting accounts of a February dogfight.'
>
>
>
> [The net outcome: the loss of a fighter jet and a helicopter (in friendly
> fire) along with precious lives.
>
> Nothing, just nothing, tangible in return.
> No meaningful damage in Balaot either.
> For a comprehensive account and reasoned analysis: <
> https://scroll.in/article/918686/opinion-on-balakot-and-after-real-mystery-is-how-the-indian-response-has-been-touted-as-a-triumph?fbclid=IwAR0QxrawU6JG2kfhIhW25MRabQwjYtIV-BHei8MAXUbEPV2ryrV5pm-i2P8
> >.
>
> When in the past, India had similarly suffered???
> Ever???
> Even if one opts to forget 1971.
>
> 《It is possible that in the heat of combat, Varthaman, flying a vintage
> MiG-21 Bison, got a lock on the Pakistani F-16, fired, and genuinely
> believed he scored a hit. But the count, conducted by U.S. authorities on
> the ground in Pakistan, sheds doubt on New Delhi’s version of events,
> suggesting that Indian authorities may have misled the international
> community about what happened that day.
> ...
> Although the news likely won’t sway Indian voters, Vipin Narang, an
> associate professor of political science at MIT, said the way the events
> have unfolded may affect India’s efforts to deter Pakistan in the future.
> “As details come out, it looks worse and worse for the Indians,” Narang
> said. “It looks increasingly like India failed to impose significant costs
> on Pakistan, but lost a plane and a helicopter of its own in the process.”》
>
> Same report by Indian media, in confirmation: <
> https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/us-count-of-pakistans-f-16s-fighter-jets-found-none-of-them-missing-report/articleshow/68733231.cms
> >.]
>
>
> https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/04/did-india-shoot-down-a-pakistani-jet-u-s-count-says-no/?fbclid=IwAR1VEhAkoBQklAMEpdodFq-ZSh9ToILRpspTjp2wP7GTLUFgKR0IatlAshQ
>
> Did India Shoot Down a Pakistani Jet? U.S. Count Says No.
> New Delhi and Islamabad had conflicting accounts of a February dogfight.
>
> BY LARA SELIGMAN | APRIL 4, 2019, 7:50 PM
>
> Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi waves at the public rally in Kolkata,
> India, on April 3. (Atul Loke/Getty Images)
>
> India’s claim that one of its fighter pilots shot down a Pakistani F-16
> fighter jet in an aerial battle between the two nuclear powers in February
> appears to be wrong.... Two senior U.S. defense officials with direct
> knowledge of the situation told Foreign Policy that U.S. personnel recently
> counted Islamabad’s F-16s and found none missing.
>
> The findings directly contradict the account of Indian Air Force
> officials, who said that Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman managed to
> shoot down a Pakistani F-16 before his own plane was downed by a Pakistani
> missile.
>
> It is possible that in the heat of combat, Varthaman, flying a vintage
> MiG-21 Bison, got a lock on the Pakistani F-16, fired, and genuinely
> believed he scored a hit. But the count, conducted by U.S. authorities on
> the ground in Pakistan, sheds doubt on New Delhi’s version of events,
> suggesting that Indian authorities may have misled the international
> community about what happened that day.
>
> The news comes just days before the start of India’s general elections, in
> which Prime Minister Narendra Modi is seeking another term in office. In
> the weeks leading up to the election, tensions between India and Pakistan
> escalated to levels not seen in decades after a Pakistan-based militant
> group killed more than 40 Indian security officers in a Feb. 14 suicide
> bombing in India-controlled Kashmir. Both sides have been accused of
> spreading disinformation and fanning nationalistic flames.
>
> Although the news likely won’t sway Indian voters, Vipin Narang, an
> associate professor of political science at MIT, said the way the events
> have unfolded may affect India’s efforts to deter Pakistan in the future.
>
> “As details come out, it looks worse and worse for the Indians,” Narang
> said. “It looks increasingly like India failed to impose significant costs
> on Pakistan, but lost a plane and a helicopter of its own in the process.”
>
> The dogfight between the two nations occurred on Feb. 27, when India says
> a group of Pakistani jets entered its airspace in response to the first
> Indian air raid on Pakistani territory since a 1971 war. India scrambled
> its own jets and gave chase. During the aerial battle that ensued,
> Varthaman took a missile hit and ejected safely into Pakistani territory.
>
> He was captured by the Pakistani army and released days later in an effort
> to de-escalate the crisis.
>
> One of the senior U.S. defense officials with direct knowledge of the
> count said that Pakistan invited the United States to physically count its
> F-16 planes after the incident as part of an end-user agreement signed when
> the foreign military sale was finalized. Generally in such agreements, the
> United States requires the receiving country to allow U.S. officials to
> inspect the equipment regularly to ensure it is accounted for and protected.
>
> Some of the aircraft were not immediately available for inspection due to
> the conflict, so it took U.S. personnel several weeks to account for all of
> the jets, the official said.
>
> But now the count has been completed, and “all aircraft were present and
> accounted for,” the official said.
>
> --
> Peace Is Doable
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Peace Is Doable
>
>
>
>
> __._,_.___
> ------------------------------
> Posted by: sanjeev kulkarni <jeevkulka...@yahoo.com>
> ------------------------------
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Peace Is Doable




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Peace Is Doable

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