-----Original Message----- From: Edward Snyder [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, January 17, 2014 7:15 AM To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: FW: Some thoughts on reactions to the GWMicro and Microsoft partnership:
Hello all you excited humans et al: First: this is an important series of discussions as they involve fundamental issues of legal approaches, societal communication and possible resolutions of perceived and or real problems. Secondly, in the interests of full disclosure I am a lawyer, albeit an old one, kind of out of touch but nonetheless with a law degree from Harvard Law School in `1961. Thirdly: the legal issues being referred to aare complicated and unfortunately, they will tend to remain complicated and often therefore, confusing. This is not really the fault of the public at large, meaning here, people who are not trained in the law. It is, if anything, the responsibility of lawyers, and I must venture the opinion that we have been extremely remiss, and worse, in fomenting complication rather than clarity. To speak to the instant discussion, for example, Vaughan, you speak of Jim having "no right" to tell Listers what to believe, think or otherwise consider business contracts or arangments made by GW micro and Microsoft. I must differ with you here. The Constitution of the United States together with many Supreme Court decisions clearly states that Jim and, especially, any customer of a product, has every right to comment and venture opinions about said product. Are there limitations to such comments? Certainly. To opine and propogate untrue and false information may subject the writing to the limitations of the laws of libel. However, the specific questions as to whether a business is required to give the details of its contractual relationship with other persons or companies is quite a different story. There is a body of law which discusses, for example, proprietary information that is contained within the documentation residing in a corporation's files. A customer, citizen or simply interested individual can inquire of a corporation for any particular piece of information and be given that information in full detail or, not at all. Part of a business decision for a corporation is based upon its attitude towards a concept called "good will." Good Will has significant monitary consequences, particularly in tax and valuation issues. Thus, it is entirely possible, that Gw micro might very well wisht to publishd all of its contracts with other corporations as a matter of demonstrating good faith to its customers. Or, of course, it could decide, that it will not release any information about its contracts, even the fact of the contracts very existence. As, I said above, things get complicated. With technological changes, and apparently, the continuation of technological changes, the rights and freedoms of what knowledge can be retained privately, and what knowledge can be or ought to be made public to all or parts of the public, are huge questions with even greater consequences. Witness, for example, the Edward Snowden information disclosures. The issues are very significant and if what we generally mean by the free interchange of information is truly a valued societal set of relationships, then, the complicated and messy communication exchanges must continue. And speaking of personal communication, I wish to thank efvery lister, for in my attempts to understand and use window eyes and related programs, the mere fact of reading your many observations gives me hope as I realize that not all of my frustrations are due to my continuing ignorance, but, in addition, the nature of the beast, and, a changing beast at that. Kind of makes one feel more alive; so thank you all. Being an ancient creature myself, having learned the technology of learning to type in the eighth simply grade on a 1934 underwood office typewriter, the computer was an inegma which I forced myself to become somewhat acquainted with in order to be somewhat conversant with my children who took them for granted as they did the air they breathed. I do not think there is anything wrong at all with gw micro striking it rich, if indeed that is what has occurred. In fact, congratulations. I do need to give a little warning of studies that have shown that individuals who have come into windfalls are very often found to be less happy than they were when they were poorer. So where would I like to leave this email entrée into the fray of friendly fulmoinating folks? Well, first of all, it sure would have been nice not to have had to expend 1200 bucks for screen reader. So, the partnership seems to really reduce that expenditure. I have found the tech support personnel courteous, patient and even resolved issues that my dying neurons refused to solve on their Own. But, big is big! And if Big Microsoft takes a step, it is usually a big step, and hopefully, Window eyes and it support processes and peoples will not be crushed by a Microsoft Footprint, be it inadvertent or maliciously profiteering. An interesting fellow, Gurdjieff, once said "do,,what you do not want to do." So, now, I will read what I have just written; and, I really hate doing that. Best Regards, Edward, The eye Is Watching You -----Original Message----- From: Vaughan Dodd [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 3:13 PM To: 'Jim Grimsby JR.' Cc: [email protected] Subject: RE: Some thoughts on reactions to the GWMicro and Microsoft partnership: Jim: don't you tell me or any other list member what our rights are? And as it happens - you've missed my point. Business strategies are discussed in open sessions all of the time. Strategy is different (at a more general level by far) than matters of transaction. If you read my entire message rather than showing yourself to be impetuous, you would have noticed that my intention was to be balanced and not to take a rights based position at all. One of the things which you overlook is that those of us outside the United States never get to see representatives of companies like GW and we don't get opportunities to ask questions "in the flesh" so please understand that your opinion Is not the only one - neither is mine. And once again: in general - I agree with you and others that this is a positive development which has potentially many also positive consequences. Vaughan. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Grimsby JR. [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, 17 January 2014 2:58 a.m. To: Vaughan Dodd Cc: [email protected] Subject: RE: Some thoughts on reactions to the GWMicro and Microsoft partnership: No you don't have the right to know what the business transactions are. You don't have the right to know what the long term agreements are etc. if they told you they would be telling everyone else including every competitor they have. This would be a bad move on there part. Why should you support gw micro and Microsoft. How about you like the product you like using the product. Even if Microsoft does not decide to bundle window-eyes with windows so what it is bundled with office. More and more computers and tablits are coming with Microsoft office home and student. I think but it is none of my concern at this point that Microsoft will and should expand the plans here but they don't have to and I for one am pleased with what they have done. wether I stay with gw micro and window-eyes will depend on if they give me the features I want and need. If they do that gw micro has my support. Gw micro responds to its users works with them and actually does things to make sure the users can use the program. Look at the leace to own program. Yes they maid money off that and good deal for them. now look at the office program yes sure they are making money and good for them but they are also making sure the users can get the program. That in it self is a reason to support gw micro. We can talk about what we think and what we think might be ahead. This is cool. While you are doing so though don't think gw micro or Microsoft owes you anything. They owe it to themselves to make money. That is the function of a company. So no you have no rights here. You have a choice use it or don't. -----Original Message----- From: Vaughan Dodd [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 1:37 PM To: 'Tom Kingston'; [email protected] Subject: RE: Some thoughts on reactions to the GWMicro and Microsoft partnership: Tom: watch CNBC - companies and commentators discuss business strategies all of the time. All part of keeping the customers engaged, interested and hopefully - buying. I like the ethics of GW Micro, and these underpin my continued support and endorsement of Window-eyes. This new scheme is a smart strategic move, but I ythink I have a right to know what is the likey contractual arrangement that was (and we now know still is), the SMA and pricing in general. GW has of course answered many of the questions that I and others have, but in the longer term, why should I support GW Micro,Window-eyes, Microsoft etc when there are other options all worthy of proper consideration? Understanding the business culture of a company is more than just engaging in a transactional process. Actually: if Window-eyes were to become bundled with the operating system, that would keep me staying with Windows pcs for longer than is my current plan. If Microsoft paid royalties to GW Micro for inclusion of it sproduct - that might ensure that people stay gainfully employed, and able to live comfortably. If GW Micro had expansion plans to better serve those of us who do not live in the United States ... all speculation! So: as is usual - all will be revealed in the fullness of time. Vaughan. Vaughan. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Kingston [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, 16 January 2014 10:04 a.m. To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Some thoughts on reactions to the GWMicro and Microsoft partnership: Sorry, Vaughan . But in my opinion, the business plan of GW Micro or any other company I purchase a product from is none of my business. I have no right to know and they are under no obligation to tell me about their future plans. And besides, I can tell you this much: They are under a non-disclosure agreement regarding anything they're planning to do in partnership with Microsoft. That is a given in business partnerships. Regards, Tom On 1/15/2014 3:14 PM, Vaughan Dodd wrote: > Aaron: the suspension of SMA, presuming that existing agreements will be > honoured, means aprice increase. This price increase is not because costs > increase, but because a purchasing option has been withdrawn. > > I believe it does now become important to know whether GW Micro is working > with Microsoft to incorporate a screen reader into future releases of windows > as some on this list have astutely speculated. > > Vaughan . > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron Smith [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Thursday, 16 January 2014 8:47 a.m. > Cc: gwmicro > Subject: Re: Some thoughts on reactions to the GWMicro and Microsoft > partnership: > > Hi, Chris. > > Nothing has changed for retail users except the suspension of SMAs. > > Thanks, > > Aaron > > On 1/15/2014 2:46 PM, Chris wrote: >> OK, with that limitation with the free version, will those of us with >> SMAs and paid upgrades still retain the ability to install our Window >> Eyes on all of our own machines as in the past or is the license >> changing to disallow this? One of the best things for me has been >> being able to use my Window Eyes on all computers in the house and to >> be able to use a portable version when I am called on by various >> family members and friends to fix their PC woes. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Smith >> Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 7:03 AM >> Cc: gwmicro >> Subject: Re: Some thoughts on reactions to the GWMicro and Microsoft >> partnership: >> >> Hi, Butch. >> >> That would be dependent upon your Office license. If it supports >> installation on more than one machine, then the free Window-Eyes >> would work anywhere Office is installed. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Aaron >> >> On 1/14/2014 8:02 PM, Butch Bussen wrote: >>> If you did this, could office be installed on more than one machine? >>> 73 >>> Butch >>> WA0VJR >>> Node 3148 >>> Wallace, ks. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 14 Jan 2014, David wrote: >>> >>>> Well, Aaron, >>>> according to the budget example mentioned, buying an Office, paying >>>> you support and even wanting some extra voices, I would end up with >>>> little as 350 dollars or so. Now, if I am correct, the paid-for >>>> version of WE is something like 800 dollars. What am I missing in >>>> the 350 dollar go? If nothing, what then would call for anyone to >>>> pay you the 800 dollars? Something is missing in your small print. >>>> :) >>>> >>>> BTW, please will you in the future make sure of proper translations. >>>> Your website did come up in a "Translated" version, in my locale >>>> language. Yet, the translated version looked as if you had been >>>> sponsoring Google's translator. It is simply not good enough, and >>>> specially when it comes to the legal stuff in the FAQ. Had it not >>>> been due to me being used to bad translations from electronic >>>> suppliers, I would have a very hard time in understanding any of >>>> the answers. Just to give you one example of the badness, it was >>>> talking about the Eloquence synthesizer. It had translated it into >>>> the "well-spoken synthesizer". A user that would not exactly have >>>> known that the word eloquence means something like well-spoken, >>>> would never be able to know what synthesizer you were talking about >>>> in the translated version. Whatever service you have called for >>>> when comes to the translation, have it turned off in the future, >>>> and get real people who know what they are doing and talking about, >>>> perform your documents. Not even for a freeware product, this >>>> translation thing was anything good enough. Sorry, but that is the >>>> facts. :) >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Smith" >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> To: "Don H" <[email protected]>; "Chris H" >>>> <[email protected]>; "gwmicro" <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 9:52 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Some thoughts on reactions to the GWMicro and >>>> Microsoft >>>> partnership: >>>> >>>> >>>>> I'm not trying to say, "Don't give us money," but you don't have >>>>> to purchase support or additional synthesizers. If you're >>>>> technical enough to solve your own problems, and are fine with >>>>> the MS or eSpeak voices, you don't pay anything for Window-Eyes >>>>> itself. >>>>> >>>>> Aaron >>>>> >>>>> On 1/14/2014 3:47 PM, Don H wrote: >>>>>> OK so if I understand it correctly you buy a copy of Microsoft >>>>> office > for as little as $125, if desired purchase either of two >>>>> available tech > support plans for no more than $99 and buy >>>>> Vocalizer voices for less > than $100 and you now have a free >>>>> version of WE that is just like having > a retail copy for a lot >>>>> less. Sounds great if the plan still sustains > GW as a viable >>>>> company. GW has always been a great company and I really > really >>>>> hope it remains just that. >>>>>>> On 1/14/2014 2:38 PM, Chris H wrote: >>>>>>> I see in the FAQ that technical support is not an option if >>>>>>> you >>>>> take >>>>>>> advantage of this offer, remember this is going by the FAQ and >>>>> not >>>>>>> something I am making up, they say this is one of many >>>>> benefits of >>>>>>> purchasing Window-Eyes from Gw themselves. >>>>>>>>> Regards Chris >>>>>>>>> On 14/01/2014 20:33, Solomon Mekonnen wrote: >>>>>>>> Listen guys and Gals! >>>>>>>> Let cool minds prevail. >>>>>>>> The business aspect of the deal should not concern the >>>>> consumer > > > unless >>>>>>>> we can show a verifiable disadvantage to the user. >>>>>>>> However, there are a few relevant questions that should be >>>>> answered: >>>>>>>> 1. How about all prepaid and yet unused SMA privileges? >>>>>>>> 2. Does the partnership mean software integration, or, >>>>> does >>>>>>>> WindowEyes maintain its independence? >>>>>>>> 3. If integration, would the integration of WindowEyes >>>>> with >>>>>>>> Microsoft cause WindowEyes to suffer from the >>>>> vulnerabilities of >>>>>>>> Microsoft Office products? Is GWMicro still committed to >>>>> assuring > > > the >>>>>>>> stability of WindowEyes we have enjoyed so far? >>>>>>>> 4. Does the consumer continue to receive tech-support >>>>> from > > > GWMicro >>>>>>>> or will Microsoft provide tech-support? >>>>>>>> 5. If the latter, Does Microsoft have enough >>>>> tech-support staff > > > who >>>>>>>> are familiar with, not only the technical details of >>>>> WindowEyes, but >>>>>>>> also and more importantly the peculiar nature of the needs of >>>>> the >>>>>>>> clientele of GWMicro and similar vendors or providers? >>>>>>>> 6. Do we still have the option of procuring WindowEyes >>>>> without >>>>>>>> necessarily associating ourselves with Microsoft Office >>>>> products? >>>>>>>>>>> Please let us discuss and seek answers for important >>>>> questions like >>>>>>>> these instead of trying to meddle in the business of two >>>>> independent > > > and >>>>>>>> legal entities. >>>>>>>>>>> Don't forget, if we don't like it, we don't have to get >>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>>> Solomon. >>>>>>>> If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the >>>>> original > > > sender >>>>>>>> only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and >>>>> your > > > message is >>>>>>>> related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your >>>>> message to >>>>>>>> [email protected] so the entire list will receive it. >>>>>>>>>>> GW-Info messages are archived at >>>>> http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You > > > can >>>>>>>> manage your list subscription at >>>>> http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv. >>>>>>>>>>>>> If you reply to this message it will be delivered >>>>> to the original > > sender >>>>>>> only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your >>>>> message > > is >>>>>>> related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message >>>>>>> to [email protected] so the entire list will receive it. >>>>>>>>> GW-Info messages are archived at >>>>> http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You > > can >>>>>>> manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv. >>>>>>>>>> If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the >>>>> original sender > only. If your reply would benefit others on the >>>>> list and your message is > related to GW Micro, then please >>>>> consider sending your message to > [email protected] so the >>>>> entire list will receive it. >>>>>>> GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. >>>>> You can > manage your list subscription at >>>>> http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Aaron Smith >>>>> Web Development * App Development * Product Support Specialist >>>>> GW Micro, Inc. * 725 Airport North Office Park, Fort Wayne, IN 46825 >>>>> 260-489-3671 * gwmicro.com >>>>> >>>>> To insure that you receive proper support, please include all >>>>> past correspondence (where applicable), and any relevant >>>>> information pertinent to your situation when submitting a problem >>>>> report to the GW Micro Technical Support Team. >>>>> If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the >>>>> original sender only. If your reply would benefit others on the >>>>> list and your message is related to GW Micro, then please >>>>> consider sending your message to [email protected] so the >>>>> entire list will receive it. >>>>> >>>>> GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. >>>>> You can >>>>> manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original >>>> sender only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and >>>> your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending >>>> your message to [email protected] so the entire list will receive it. >>>> >>>> GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You >>>> can manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv. >>>> >>>> >>> If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original >>> sender only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your >>> message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your >>> message to [email protected] so the entire list will receive it. >>> >>> GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You >>> can manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv. >> > > -- > Aaron Smith > Web Development * App Development * Product Support Specialist GW > Micro, Inc.. * 725 Airport North Office Park, Fort Wayne, IN 46825 > 260-489-3671 * gwmicro.com > > To insure that you receive proper support, please include all past > correspondence (where applicable), and any relevant information pertinent to > your situation when submitting a problem report to the GW Micro Technical > Support Team. > If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender > only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is > related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to > [email protected] so the entire list will receive it. > > GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can > manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv. > > > ------------------------------- > This email and any attachments may contain information that is confidential > and subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, any > use, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this email and attachments > is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the > author immediately and erase all copies of the email and attachments. The > Ministry of Social Development accepts no responsibility for changes made to > this message or attachments after transmission from the Ministry. > > ------------------------------- > If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender > only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is > related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to > [email protected] so the entire list will receive it. > > GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can > manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv. > > If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to [email protected] so the entire list will receive it. GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv. ------------------------------- This email and any attachments may contain information that is confidential and subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this email and attachments is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the author immediately and erase all copies of the email and attachments. The Ministry of Social Development accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message or attachments after transmission from the Ministry. ------------------------------- If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to [email protected] so the entire list will receive it. GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv. ------------------------------- This email and any attachments may contain information that is confidential and subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this email and attachments is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the author immediately and erase all copies of the email and attachments. The Ministry of Social Development accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message or attachments after transmission from the Ministry. ------------------------------- If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to [email protected] so the entire list will receive it. GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv. If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to [email protected] so the entire list will receive it. GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv.
