It is to bad Bob could not do his presentation on Caché. It would have cleared up much of your understanding of Caché. There was a discussion about some of the differences between M and Caché awhile ago that led to Bob offering a class at Boston. Here is my simple answer to your comments. You can query the Vista database using SQL so from the outside it looks no different than a relational database. I use SQL all of the time. In fact Bob gave me a disk that had a very large part of Vista mapped (4777 classes) so that it can be queried. We had slowly been working on our own mapping of Vista.
You ask about the underlying code for Caché. I'm not sure if you mean what Intersystems writes there routines in or what developers have to write in. Intersystems uses Cache Object Script. It is Object Orientated M with C like convention such as brackets. You could use standard M which we do or Cache Object Script which we do or Cache Basic which we have not used. The idea of Cache Basic is to eliminate the learning curve of a new language. With Cache we can write interfaces to Vista in SOAP, Java, EJB, COM, VB, .NET, C++, PHP or Cache Server Pages. I'm sure I left some things out. We can get to the data from ODBC or JDBC. We are looking at using an open source reporting tool that would connect via JDBC. >From my point of view there is one thing that is missing that would make Cache a rapid development platform for Vista (It still maybe the fastest for GUI. I have not tried M2web. I do not think Jim has tried Cache so no way to know for sure. There are other reasons to use M2web.). We can read the data out of Vista fine. Cache will write the data fine into the globals bypassing Fileman, but if you do not want to bypass Fileman it presently requires silent calls to Fileman to store the data. This is not any harder than doing this in M, but not as fast as working with Cache Objects. If the Objects can take care of the storage of data in Fileman you will then see very rapid GUI development. If someone is working on this I think it will be a big plus for Vista. This was a weak explanation so be kind to me Bob. Ed Walton Western State Hospital -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nancy Anthracite Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 2:00 PM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] BIG NEWS re HealtheVet- St. Petersburg Tim es My understanding is that they are going to be using a relational database that Cache supposedly has in it ?? for now and ultimately the idea is that it should work with any relational database such as MySQL, etc. Note that I stated that it was an Oracle LIKE database. (Steve pointed out that this might not be the best choice of words. Oracle, the 1000 lb. gorilla, is something many people will have heard about and thus will recognize when relation database may mean nothing to them, which is why I chose the simile.) I persist in doubting that the speed of a relational database based system can match that of an M based system no matter who supplies it. In fact, I wonder what the underlying code for the Cache database is written in. Could it be an M based database with restrictions on how it can be populated? Oracle, from what I have heard, will be the basis of the national data repository. I could be all wet about any or all of this, however. I am just piecing together things I have heard at meetings or read in the press, etc. On Thursday 14 April 2005 10:44 am, David Sommers wrote: > What I don't understand is that the VA has a national license with > Microsoft to use any and all their products. If it truly is any > relational database, who spent money on Oracle when SQL Server is "free" > to use already? Sounds political to me. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > steven mcphelan > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 8:26 AM > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] BIG NEWS re HealtheVet- St. Petersburg > Tim es > > Very well stated. > > Nancy had also responded to this thread. She said "...It is the > attempt to move VistA from Cache M based on to an Oracle like > database..." Let's agree with the VA on the use of terms. They claim > that the rehosting is not exclusive to Oracle. Rob's term is > "relational database". I had asked the specific question as to what > did he mean by relational, SQL compliant? > He > said yes. The fact that the VA is standardizing some of its > enterprise wise solutions to the Oracle platform is strictly a > business decision that they have made given their particular > circumstances. So to constantly state that the VA is moving from M to > Oracle can be perceived as prejudicial and inaccurate. Can we all > agree to stop using terms like "Oracle like database" to a more > correct analogy which would be something like "SQL compliant > database". Many people seeing the term Oracle may have an initial > negative reaction because of the perceived costs involved. I am > taking Rob's word as accurate and that the rehosted solution will run > on any SQL database and not specifically on Oracle. However, I will > believe when I see it. But the VA will have the proof in the pudding > is some respects. > The > VA's HDR project will have the grand-daddy of all medical record > databases residing in Austin in an Oracle database. But they will > also have regional HDRs. Intersystems has already been awarded that > contract to provide the relational database engine for the regional > HDRs. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "GARY MONGER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net> > Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 10:38 PM > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] BIG NEWS re HealtheVet- St. Petersburg > Tim es > > > I think easy is a relative thing. For folks with a background or > > education > > > based on procedural languages, a transition to another procedural > > language > > > may be much easier than a transition to an OO language. And a > > transition > to > > > a procedural language for the modern child of OO may be much tougher > > than > a > > > move to another OO language. Then there's Lisp and Prolog, each > > really in > > > its own category. Its more than the language, it's the abstraction > > the > > > language represents. Lisp is functional and recursive, and you must > > approach problems accordingly to be proficient. With MUMPS you have > > strong > > > string manipulation and pattern matching, tremendous overloading of > > functions and operators, and a different concept of truth. Perl is > > the > only > > > thing I've seen come close. With MUMPS its also the globals, > > nothing > > really > > > like that out there in the mainstream. You solve problems a > > different > > way > > > when you have sparse arrays. With VistA, its Fileman. VistA data > > structure > > > is a big step away from your typical MUMPS system, and it takes a > > while > for > > > even a strong M developer to come up to speed. > > > > Learning a language is one thing, being proficient in a new > > abstraction is > > > another and takes time. I'd say a couple years for most people. I > > think > I > > > picked up Java pretty quickly, but I certainly could use a couple > > years > > > experience before I'd consider myself solid. > > > > > > Anyway, I'm not so sure the new architecture for HEV VistA is such a > > huge > > > miss. Certainly there are many advantages to M/Cache and to > > leveraging > the > > > M expertise VHA employs. One of the most important being that its > > how > > I > pay > > > the bills. But I don't need to enumerate the pros of M on this list. > > > > I will say that I think the success of DHCP/VistA has more to do > > with > > the > > > framework that supports it than anything else. Fileman and Kernel > > allow > so > > > many possibilities. Many great applications are developed locally, > > or > > by > > > outside vendors, or IHS, and seamlessly integrate with the national > > system. > > > I think the Service Oriented Architecture of HEV may provide a > > similar framework once core services are in place. Anyone can build > > a > > service, > and > > > it can live on any platform, including Cache. The consumer of the > > service > > > doesn't know and doesn't care. It seems to me this will allow the > > kind of > > > development that has made VistA what it is today. It also seems to > > me > > that > > > the platform most likely to support rapid development of new > > services > > is > the > > > cache system where the data already lives. Rehosting VistA > > applications > is > > > a tough task. Its going to take a long time, long enough for quite > > a > > lot > of > > > other things to be developed. > > > > (now donning flame proof suit) > > Maybe the new HEV VistA won't be such a bad thing after all. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 6:01 PM > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] BIG NEWS re HealtheVet- St. > > Petersburg > > Tim > > > es > > > > I think M is easier to learn than many computer languages. > > > > Certainly easier than ADA, and probably easier than Java, or > > Delphi/Pascal. > > > The complex part about becoming a truly proficient Vista programmer > > is the shear size of it, under the hood. We're talking 12,000 files, > > 60,000 fields, and maybe 100,000 routines. Not all well-documented, > > and done in many different programming styles. Old style, new style, > > structured, unstructured, single-letter variable names, meaningful > > variable names. > > > > The toughest programming job in Vista is not writing new programs, > > but modifying existing programs and files in a way that does not > > cause unexpected side-effects, because things can be so intertwined, > > and not > > well-documented, > > > under the hood. > > > > The thing I would have liked to have seen more of, as I've watched > > and participated (in a small way)in the evolution of Vista over the > > past > > 14 > > > years, is > > more encapsulation, more api's, and more programmer's documentation. > > > > But, all in all I think M is an excellent database platform, and I > > would > > > prefer > > to see the VA evolve the current product, rather than move to > > something > > > completely different, for a main HIS. I think they should look at > > commercial > > > ancillary systems, like: cardiology, GI, eye-care, PFT, Dialysis, etc. > > and > > > make it easier to integrate them with Vista, but keep and evolve the > > core > > > HIS. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > > Gordon > > > Moreshead > > Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 3:59 PM > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] BIG NEWS re HealtheVet- St. > > Petersburg Times > > > > > > Nancy, > > > > That appears to me to be a highly perceptive take on the situation > > that > > > includes considerable truth as well. I would second your > > observations > > and > > > perceptions. > > > > Gordon > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > > Nancy > > > Anthracite > > Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:53 PM > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] BIG NEWS re HealtheVet- St. > > Petersburg > > Times > > > I am afraid that part in the report that said that " VA culture > > inhibits > > > "raising risks, issues, problems or differing opinions" translates > > into > > > people will be risking their jobs to talk to you and be quoted. > > However, > a > > > search through the Hardhats archives will reveal some who have taken > > the > > > chance and have spoken out on the mailing list despite knowing that > > it > > is > > > risky to stick out your neck where others may be watching. > > > > My take on it is that the M programmers and others within the VA and > > on > the > > > outside are eager to have an opportunity to do what they have wanted > > to do > > > but have been prevented from doing for years, which is to work on > > re-engineering the existing VistA, still in M, to modularize it and > > clean > up > > > the code to make some of the very things that management complains > > about > > > regarding VistA go away. No only would that remove some of the > > complaints > > > about about VistA ("it takes $1,000,000 to change a line of code") > > but > > it > > > would make it easier to port to another language should that ever > > need > > to > be > > > done. > > > > This concept that there are not enough M programmers so it can't be > > done > is > > > bogus. In my experience, programmers know multiple languages and M > > as > > easy > > > to learn as any other. If there are so few M programmers, how is it > > that > > > other large M based medical record systems persist and new ones get > > made > but > > > the VA can't do that? I also think that many of the changes that > > are > > being > > > made that tap into VistA to get data are supported by the > > programmers, > > maybe > > > in the form they are in or something different, but allowing Java > > based > > > programs to make use of the data in the M Database is all well and > > good - > a > > > multilayered architecture is not opposed by those I have discussed > > this > > > with. > > > > However, there is something to the fact that the people who best > > know > > VistA > > > are getting older and it is time to let them direct the job they are > > so > > > eager > > to do and let them fix VistA. Maybe this will be the kick in the > > pants > for > > > everyone that might allow this to happen. > > > > On Wednesday 13 April 2005 02:24 pm, Joseph Conn wrote: > > > Any Hardhats/WorldVistA folks want to comment on this Carnegie > > report > > > story > > > > > for a story I'm working on??? I've got calls into the VA for > > comment. > > > > Joseph Conn > > > Staff writer > > > Modern Physician > > > ModernPhysician.com > > > Modern Physician STAT > > > Heatlh IT Strategist > > > 312-649-5395 > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Check out the NEW ModernPhysician.com, and register now for Modern > > > Physician Stat and Modern Physician Alert > > > > > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/13/05 11:53AM >>> > > > > > > VA faces another computer problem > > > By PAUL DE LA GARZA and STEPHEN NOHLGREN Published April 13, 2005 > > > > > > A report done for the administration suggests that the VA's > > > multibillion-dollar plan to upgrade its system is "not realistic." > > > > > > A $3.5-billion computer overhaul at veterans hospitals across the > > country > > > > is poised to fail unless the Department of Veterans Affairs makes > > drastic > > > > changes, according to a closely guarded government study obtained > > > by > > the > > > > St. Petersburg Times . > > http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/13/Worldandnation/VA_faces_another_comp > .s > htm > > > >l > > > > -- > > Nancy Anthracite > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid > > reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real > > users. > > > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > > _______________________________________________ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid > > reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real > > users. > > > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > > _______________________________________________ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid > > reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real > > users. > > > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > > _______________________________________________ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid > > reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real > > users. > > > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > > _______________________________________________ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > ------------------------------------------------------- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid > reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click > _______________________________________________ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid > reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_ide95&alloc_id396&op=Click > _______________________________________________ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members -- Nancy Anthracite ------------------------------------------------------- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. 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