On 12/29/2011 11:06 PM, Steve Horne wrote:
On 29/12/2011 21:01, Chris Smith wrote:
On Thu, 2011-12-29 at 18:07 +0000, Steve Horne wrote:
By definition, an intentional effect is a side-effect. To me, it's by
deceptive redefinition - and a lot of arguments rely on mixing
definitions - but nonetheless the jargon meaning is correct within
programming and has been for decades. It's not going to go away.
Basically, the jargon definition was coined by one of the pioneers of
function programming - he recognised a problem and needed a simple way
to describe it, but in some ways the choice of word is unfortunate.
I don't believe this is true. "Side effect" refers to having a FUNCTION
-- that is, a map from input values to output values -- such that when
it is evaluated there is some effect in addition to computing the
resulting value from that map. The phrase "side effect" refers to a
very specific confusion: namely, conflating the performing of effects
with computing the values of functions.
Yes - again, by definition that is true. But that definition is not the
everyday definition of side-effect.
> Repeating and explaining one
definition doesn't make the other go away.
That's what you seem to be doing a lot in this thread. It's very hard to
glean what *exactly* you're trying to argue since you seem to be all
over the place.
(I hope this isn't taken as an insult, it certainly isn't meant as one.)
Maybe a summary of your argument + counter-arguments (as you understand
them) on a wiki would be helpful? Mail threads with 40+ posts aren't
really useful for hashing out this kind of thing.
1. To say that the C printf function has the side-effect of printing to
the screen - that's true.
No, it has the "effect" of printing to the screen. When you call
printf() you *intend* for it to print something.
2. To say that the C printf function has no side-effects because it
works correctly - the only effects are intentional - that's also true.
I realize this is nitpicking, but all of its effects may not be
intentional. For example, given certain terminal settings it may also
flush the buffer if you have a newline in the argument string. That's a
side effect (may be desirable/undesirable).
[--snip--]
Using similar mixed definitions to conclude that every C program is full
of bugs (basically equating intentional effects with side-effects, then
equating side-effects with unintentional bugs) is a fairly common thing
in my experience, but it's a logical fallacy. If you aren't aware of the
two definitions of side-effect, it's hard to get deal with that.
Some people don't want anyone to figure out the fallacy - they like
having this convenient way to attack C, irrespective of whether it's
valid or not. Rare I think - mostly it's more confusion and memetics.
But still, I'm convinced there's some sophistry in this. And I'm not the
only person to think so, and to have reacted against that in the past.
Extra sad - you don't need that fallacy to attack C. It's redundant. C
is quite happy to demonstrate its many failings.
That's the flimsiest straw man I've ever seen.
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