I also think the downloads should be the minimal HP and separated from getting started. But that doesn't mean we can't bridge the gap with a simple link at the bottom of the downloads page pointing people to the next step: "Next...get started with Haskell" or something similar. Then I'm sure we can come up with a getting started page that has links to different tracks targeted at different audiences. Based on this discussion I can think of three obvious getting started tracks:
Total beginner command line ghci Cabal-install Stack And we can even present them horizontally so they all are presented at the same time and on the same level! On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 3:30 AM, Michael Snoyman <mich...@fpcomplete.com> wrote: > This sounds awesome, I'm totally behind it. Thank you Gershom! > > > On Thu, Sep 1, 2016, 10:09 AM Gershom B <gersh...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I think this is a very good point being made. We should disengangle >> the installer question from the “getting started” question. Someone >> on reddit even proposed having two seperate pages entirely. >> >> A getting started page that promoted a stack centric workflow for >> beginners as a good “default path” would be reasonable in my eyes, and >> certainly worth discussing. Certainly if it let us lay the downloads >> page to rest with a single option for a minimal installer (with >> perhaps slightly different branding as discussed on a ticket I linked >> earlier — “Haskell Toolchain” or the like) that provided ghc, stack >> and cabal all, then I think that would be a very good way to go. >> >> That way Nicolas and others who wanted to direct people to the >> downloads page, and then wanted to teach them with one sort of >> approach would be able to do so, people who wanted to direct people to >> the downloads page, and teach them with a stack-based approach would >> be able to do so, and people coming to the site directly could >> immediately find a “getting started page” with a single approach that >> got them up and running quickly, and that approach could well be >> stack-oriented if that’s what people think gives the best experience >> for that particular use case. >> >> (Again, I give the caveat I’m speaking just for myself here, and >> thinking this through as an idea I’d like to hear others’ thoughts >> on). >> >> —gershom >> >> >> On August 31, 2016 at 5:48:41 PM, Nicolas Wu (nicolas...@gmail.com) wrote: >> > Hi Paolo, >> > >> > On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:53 PM Paolo Giarrusso >> > wrote: >> > >> > > > The decision about how to manage projects and their dependencies >> > > > should >> > > be >> > > > open and isn't for beginners, whether that be using stack or cabal: >> > > > both >> > > > have their merits, and I don't want to push one over the other. >> > > >> > > I'm honestly confused what you're arguing. You say this decision isn't >> > > for beginners, yet you propose offering the HP. So how should a >> > > beginner install a package without first deciding whether to use >> > > cabal-install or stack? Or can a beginner meaningfully be expected to >> > > learn using both alternatives? >> > > >> > >> > Sorry for not being clear, my bad. Hopefully I can clarify and elaborate >> > a >> > bit more. >> > >> > I think a beginner doesn't usually make the choice of how to use >> > GHC/stack/cabal by themselves; they are usually being instructed by >> > someone >> > (or a resource) that has decided that for them. On that front I don't >> > think >> > there's a singular best way to approach this; there's diversity in the >> > way >> > people approach teaching and that's fine and healthy, there's also >> > diversity in the way people learn and the goals they have with the >> > language >> > and that's fine and healthy too. We should be supporting people who want >> > to >> > learn the language as well as people who want to contribute to teaching. >> > We >> > should respect diversity in those roles; if someone wants their students >> > to >> > use only stack then by all means they can do so, that shouldn't stop >> > others >> > from using ghc or ghci directly. >> > >> > For instance, if a beginner is just trying to run small examples they >> > see >> > on a blog, then maybe all they need is a call to ghci. If they're >> > learning >> > about making a simple binary they might want ghc. If they want to have a >> > whole managed project, perhaps they're after either stack or cabal. The >> > point is that they're usually guided by something, and those guides do >> > differ on what they prefer and recommend. The default download should >> > easily support these different modes of learning and teaching. >> > >> > >> > > Also, do both tools have their merits *for beginners*? We're talking >> > > of cabal as-is, not of the ongoing work on new-build. >> > > >> > >> > I'm talking about having a default that bundles tools like ghc, cabal, >> > and >> > stack, since these are the main tools our community has for compiling >> > and >> > executing Haskell code. I don't want to force people into one of >> > these--whether that be students or educators. In all cases the default >> > download recommendation should support all of these since they are the >> > mainstream tools we use. To avoid confusion I think there should be only >> > one recommended option on the main download page (and here the HP >> > minimal >> > seems to satisfy this, and stack seems to preclude this). The download >> > page >> > should also have a link to other resources (such as the HP Full, stack >> > only, and other distributions like Haskell for Mac) on another page. >> > >> > Since there seems to be confusion about how the committee comes to a >> > consensus I should note that at this point I'm only speaking for myself >> > here. This is just my recommendation, and I'm open and willing to listen >> > to >> > other views before considering what I think is best. I am not usually >> > overtly vocal in these discussions, but I do read what is said and form >> > my >> > own opinions. >> > >> > Best wishes, >> > >> > Nick >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Haskell-community mailing list >> > Haskell-community@haskell.org >> > http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Haskell-community mailing list >> Haskell-community@haskell.org >> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community > > > _______________________________________________ > Haskell-community mailing list > Haskell-community@haskell.org > http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community > _______________________________________________ Haskell-community mailing list Haskell-community@haskell.org http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-community
