This is why I'm not sure this discussion is productive. All of our members, I think, agree that "protecting the environment" is a Good Thing. But opinions are all over the place. Josh, have you heard of RECs before I suggested this idea, or done any in-depth research before you came to the conclusion that they are feel-good psychological nothings that people are wasting billions of dollars on?
As someone else wrote here, "I hate to be a jerk," but you are simply wrong when you say RECs do "nothing" to help the environment. They directly fund the building and operation of renewable energy products where they would otherwise be economically unviable, in the case of NativeEnergy, among other projects, two currently operating wind turbines in Souix reservations in the Dakotas, and future larger projects there. The fact is that every REC you buy increases investment in renewable energy, and in the case of CoolWatts certificates is CERTIFIED to increase the amount of renewable energy on the grid by its face value. -ntk P.S. Obviously there will never be a market for paying people to ride their bikes (another straw man argument). But there are analogies, like employers subsidizing their employee's public transportation passes, which have the same kind of direct impact in encouraging greener public versus private transportation. > If the cost is really only going to be only "between $0.05 and $0.15 per member monthly" then I do not object. However, this is silly; it's more about serving our own emotional needs than it is about helping the environment, building a sustainable energy economy, or repairing damage that we cause. > > We would not be buying "clean" electricity, or electricity at all. We would be buying something called "renewable energy credits," which, according to NativeEnergy's site, are "a commodity that consist of the rights to claim the emissions reductions and other environmental benefits > of green power." (I have added this definition on the wiki). In other words, we are not helping the environment; we are merely buying the right > to "claim" the emissions reductions that other purchasers of electricity actually accomplished. This is not a "right" in a legal or economic sense, either; it's more of a moral/ethical right to claim that you are doing a good thing. It is purely psychological. > > I ride a bicycle to work every day. As a result, I can claim that I am helping the environment. It hadn't occurred to me, until now, that I could make a few bucks on the side by selling to others the right to "claim" my emissions reductions: give me, say, $1 a month, and then you and not I get to claim that you are doing the right thing. But come on; if a guilty automobile commuter took me up on this deal, the environment doesn't actually benefit, because he's still driving a car and I'm still riding a bike. If anything, by alleviating the guilty commuter's sense of > guilt, I've made it less likely that he will ever change his > environment-harming behavior. > > I don't think buying these "CoolWatts" in any way morally absolves us from > buying dirty power through our current provider. This is really just an elaborate charitable donation to a for-profit power company. But it's a small donation, and because other cooperative members seem to feel very strongly in favor of this, I will not object. > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Michael Olson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 12:40:23 AM > Subject: Re: [HCoop-Discuss] EnvironmentalPolicy > > > Nathan Kennedy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> First, there is the Rochedale Principle of social responsibility and the basic moral principle of cleaning up after ourself. Hosting is a fairly clean business; the two biggest environmental costs are >> hardware disposal and dirty electricity generation. >> From a less altruistic perspective, the tiny cost of going totally >> green presents a great marketing opportunity. We can use green-e and NativeEnergy tags, join the EPA Green Energy Partnership, be listed in green business directories, and just generally attract interest as not only a unique cooperative providing great service at great value, but wind-powered too. > > These are both fairly compelling reasons, and the cost isn't > prohibitively high, so I support this. > > -- > Michael Olson -- FSF Associate Member #652 -- http://www.mwolson.org/ Interests: Lisp, text markup, protocols -- Jabber: mwolson_at_hcoop.net > /` |\ | | | Projects: Emacs, Muse, ERC, EMMS, Planner, ErBot, DVC > |_] | \| |_| Reclaim your digital rights by eliminating DRM. > See http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm for details. > _______________________________________________ > HCoop-Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > http://hcoop.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hcoop-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > HCoop-Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > http://hcoop.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hcoop-discuss > _______________________________________________ HCoop-Discuss mailing list [email protected] http://hcoop.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hcoop-discuss
