-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hlcoders-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeremy Swigart
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 6:20 AM
To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com
Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Examples of uses for IEngine-
>ServerInsertCommand()
I could be wrong, but even if ServerInsertCommand() puts the script
command at the front of the queue as opposed to the back, that still
wouldn't be executed until the current script is finished. Sounds like
really what you need is ServerCommandNow() that executes it right now,
so that when the next line of the current script runs, it can be sure
that the results of the script it just invoked is already done. Sounds
like even with ServerInsertCommand() it is gonna be a pain to get the
ordering right.
On 6/10/05, Mattie Casper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks for the suggestion, but, as you may have guessed, this has been
> considered. ;) Yet, creating an entire scripting engine isn't the goal
of
> EventScripts. There are lots of different scripting engines out there,
and they
> definitely have their place for administrators who understand coding.
> EventScripts is trying to be the middle-ground between a
structured/scoped
> language and the console commands they know and love. As I mentioned
below, ES
> doesn't yet support looping and the like and may never do so--- it's not
> intended to be a full-powered scripting language.
>
> With EventScripts, we're trying to enhance the console commands so that
even
> everyday normal console/rcon commands and normal autoexec.cfg/server.cfg
files
> can take advantage of very simple logic and variable expansion. We don't
need
> everything a scripting language can do, we just want some basic
enhancements to
> the command console. Most of these console enhancements would be along
the lines
> Valve was already been moving, e.g. with "setinfo" and "incrementvar".
>
> Yet, even in the case of a full blown scripting language, not having
> InsertCommand() means that any scripts/commands that you wished to
invoke via a
> normal Valve cfg file would have the same ordering problem if they
needed to
> pass commands back to the server (e.g. exec, changelevel, kickid, etc).
These
> commands would execute *after* the current .cfg file was totally
resolved and
> not in-place. This wouldn't be intuitive and would likely cause
problems! It
> wouldn't be a problem if you didn't allow the console to launch scripts,
but the
> server console is a great place for invoking things like that
(especially
> remotely).
>
> *** TO CLARIFY, this isn't a problem just for scripting engines! ***
It's a
> problem for ANY PLUGIN that uses console commands and needs to interact
with the
> console. Let's say I wrote a console command "mattie_exec" that took
Con_Argv(1)
> and passed it to exec with a different directory prefix (e.g. my mod's
> directory).
>
> // server.cfg
> mattie_exec blah.cfg
> exec load_plugins.cfg
> // end of server.cfg
>
> Now, the mattie_exec command, all it does is call engine-
>ServerCommand("exec
> matties_mod\blah.cfg\n"). In this case, the console would execute like
this:
>
> 1. (contents of server.cfg added to the queue around LevelInit())
> 2. mattie_exec runs (places "exec mattie_mod\blah.cfg" at end of queue)
> 3. exec load_plugins.cfg runs (all plugins activated, configured, etc)
> 4. exec mattie_mod\blah.cfg runs
>
> You see that even though the mattie_exec command was placed in a certain
order
> in the cfg file, it's irrelevant. Any server commands those commands
rely upon
> cannot be activated until after the entire .cfg file has been processed.
This
> means that if the "load_plugins.cfg" relied upon any settings created in
> blah.cfg, there's no way at all to get it to work short of bypassing the
plugin
> commands.
>
> Admittedly, this is a simple example, but it underscores the issue
outside of a
> scripting context. Plugin console commands could be calling back to any
number
> of other console commands. We all have access to ServerCommand(), right?
Well,
> just like Valve, we need it's sister command in order to create proper
console
> commands. Sometimes we don't care about ordering, so ServerCommand()
might be
> appropriate, but many times ordering *will* be important. We truly need
> ServerInsertCommand(), and I hope everyone can see that.
>
> Thanks for your help and for reading this far,
> -Mattie
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeremy Swigart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 7:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Examples of uses for IEngine-
>ServerInsertCommand()
>
>
> > Have you considered using a scripting language such as lua or
> > gamemonkeyscript or another one that supports fake threading?
> > Specifically you might be interested in their ability to execute over
> > many frames, yet still be written in a top down manner. Here's an
> > example of GMS, which I use in my bot.
> >
> > / server.cfg
> > if(sv_gravity > 800)
> > {
> > exec("reset_grav.cfg");
> > echo("gravity reset");
> > yield(); // suspend execution of the script till the next frame, can
> > also do sleep() commands
> > }
> > else
> > {
> > echo("gravity is fine");
> > }
> > echo("this happens the frame after the gravity is reset, or right away
> > if the exec didnt happen");
> >
> > Everything you do and much more would be possible using the features
> > of an existing scripting language, and with it you'd get the power of
> > conditionals, tables, loops, and much more.
> >
> > Just an idea.
> >
> > J
> >
> > On 6/9/05, Mattie Casper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> As promised, this email contains examples of the sorts of things that
plugin
> >> authors cannot manage in Source without some method to insert
commands at the
> >> beginning of the server command queue. This ability is vital for any
plugin
> >> wishing to create meta console commands. I.e. commands like alias,
exec,
> >> incrementvar, etc.
> >>
> >> Variable expansion --
> >> ------------------------
> >> EventScripts makes extensive use of variable expansion for its
console
> >> commands, and it's crippled without InsertCommand(). There's no way
to
> >> arrange
> >> for expanded commands to execute right away before the rest of a
config file.
> >> For example, let's say I added the following lines to a .cfg file
(e.g.
> >> server.cfg):
> >>
> >> // server.cfg
> >> // let's say 'mypluginvar' is a variable exposed by my plugin
> >> mypluginvar "ClanMatch"
> >> expandvars echo *** mypluginvar equals %mypluginvar%
> >> echo *** The above line should say "mypluginvar equals ClanMatch"
> >> echo *** server.cfg is completely done. should see nothing else.
> >> // end server.cfg
> >>
> >> So, if my plugin's 'expandvars' command expanded variables in the
string
> >> provided to it and then passed it back to the server, the only
mechanism it
> >> can
> >> use is ServerCommand(). This will place it AFTER everything else in
the
> >> queue.
> >> As such, the output would be:
> >>
> >> *** The above line should say "mypluginvar equals ClanMatch"
> >> *** server.cfg is completely done. should see nothing else.
> >> *** mypluginvar equals ClanMatch
> >>
> >> This is definitely not what someone writing a .cfg file would be
expecting.
> >> They
> >> expect the commands to go in order of writing. EventScripts supports
a great
> >> deal of variable expansion, but there's no support for intuitive
ordering.
> >> This
> >> example is trivial compared to the complicated scripts people are
creating.
> >> It
> >> really weakens the plugin when admins can't trust that your variables
will be
> >> expanded properly in relation to other commands in the cfg file.
> >> -------------------------
> >>
> >> Conditional expressions --
> >> -------------------------
> >> EventScripts supports conditional expressions. These are also
hindered
> >> without
> >> InsertCommand(). The order of execution again gets all out of phase.
For
> >> example, let's say I added the following lines to a .cfg file (e.g.
> >> server.cfg):
> >>
> >> // server.cfg
> >> // let's say my plugin exposes an "exec_if" command
> >> exec_if sv_gravity > 800 then reset_grav.cfg
> >> echo *** sv_gravity was set back to 800 by increase_grav.cfg
> >> exec_if sv_gravity > 800 then something_wrong.cfg
> >> // end of server.cfg
> >>
> >> In this case, the plugin command "exec_if" would test the condition
> >> "sv_gravity
> >> > 800" and then use, sadly, ServerCommand() to place "exec
reset_grav.cfg"
> >> in
> >> the queue where it could reset the gravity back to 800.
Unfortunately, this
> >> goes
> >> to the very end of the queue, so the rest of the server.cfg executes
first.
> >> This
> >> means the second conditional will STILL see sv_gravity incorrectly
because it
> >> goes through the server command queue like this:
> >>
> >> 1. exec_if
> >> 2. echo
> >> 3. exec_if
> >> 4. exec reset_grav.cfg
> >> 5. exec something_wrong.cfg
> >>
> >> #5 should never happen-- and #4 should happen before the 'echo' does.
Yet we
> >> can't do this because InsertCommand() isn't yet available to plugin
writers.
> >> -------------------------
> >>
> >> Loops --
> >> ------------------------------
> >> EventScripts does not yet support loops, but these would also be
possible
> >> if
> >> Valve provided a way to insert commands at the beginning of the
queue.
> >> Without
> >> it, you cannot be certain that the loop lines will execute before the
next
> >> line
> >> in a script.
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Enhanced versions of alias, exec, etc
> >> -----------------------------
> >> EventScripts doesn't do this yet, but if I wanted to create an
enhanced
> >> version
> >> of these Valve commands, the new commands will always be deficient
without
> >> InsertCommand(). For example, if we wanted to write an optimized
"exec"
> >> command
> >> that cached the .cfg file in memory on the first execution and then
always
> >> ran
> >> it from memory whenever called (to avoid refetches from disk):
> >>
> >> // server.cfg
> >> memexec only_changes_on_reboot.cfg
> >> exec load_plugins.cfg
> >> // end of server.cfg
> >>
> >> In this case, simulating "exec" is impossible if I wish to maintain
the order
> >> of
> >> a .cfg file. I.e., we can't cycle through the lines of the file and
have them
> >> inserted at the beginning of the command queue like Valve does. This
means
> >> that
> >> anytime we try to add the lines, they'll always fall *after* every
other line
> >> in
> >> the .cfg file. Order is important at times for plugins and the like,
and
> >> without
> >> that we just can't improve upon the console commands very well.
> >> -----------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >> Anyway, I'm going to stop now because this is getting so long that
I'm sure
> >> no
> >> one will read it. ;) Rest assured that all of these things and more
would be
> >> possible if Valve enhanced the Source SDK to include a mechanism for
adding
> >> commands to the beginning of the queue.
> >>
> >> Anyone curious about using EventScripts, you can find my forums here:
> >> http://www.sourcemod.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=20
> >>
> >> Thanks for reading this far. Maybe it will give other coders some
ideas, too,
> >> -Mattie
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >
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> >
> >
> >
>
>
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