How is this considered hacking? This command has been in counter-strike for years without anyone complaining about it. 101 is the best setting for lan. I play with 80 cmdrate, and so does just about every other person I've ever played with in CAL.
-bzr -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 4:12 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: hlds digest, Vol 1 #4190 - 7 msgs Send hlds mailing list submissions to hlds@list.valvesoftware.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of hlds digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: cl_cmdrate.... (Brian M Frain (eternal)) 2. RE: cl_cmdrate.... (James Tucker) 3. Re: Plugins for AdminMod (m0gely) 4. RE: cl_cmdrate.... (K2) 5. RE: cl_cmdrate.... (StealthMode) 6. Re: Plugins for AdminMod (CyberGameZone.com) 7. (no subject) (Ron Saunders) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:24:50 -0500 From: "Brian M Frain (eternal)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] cl_cmdrate.... Reply-To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] I play on dial-up and personally have never found the need to go below the 30 default. I also adjust it for people who have it below default on my servers, most of the time they never even notice. On 11/21/05, StealthMode <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Oz, some people on broadband are using a cl_cmdrate setting that > causes warping. They are purposely doing this to become harder to hit. > This has been deemed a rate hack by quite a few people both on and off this list. > > In response to this widespread rate hack, some of us server ops would > like to see the minimum raised or worst case the cvar to be locked > totally, and determined by valve depending on how you ping to their servers. > > So please don't come at us in this fashion, instead seek out those > that would hack this rate and confront them. We are merely dealing > with a problem we are facing every day. And asking valve to help us. > By default, the lowest cmdrate I have ever seen steam assign is 30. > People who are using lower settings on broadband know what they are > doing. They are doing it purposely and unbalancing the playing field > with their intentional warping, hence cheating. > > StealthMode > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > -- --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "James Tucker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <hlds@list.valvesoftware.com> Subject: RE: [hlds] cl_cmdrate.... Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 19:31:52 -0000 Organization: ra66i.co.uk Reply-To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Check net_channels to see whats really going on.... > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian M Frain > (eternal) > Sent: 21 November 2005 19:25 > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: Re: [hlds] cl_cmdrate.... > > -- > [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] I play on dial-up and > personally have never found the need to go below the 30 default. I > also adjust it for people who have it below default on my servers, > most of the time they never even notice. > > > On 11/21/05, StealthMode <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Oz, some people on broadband are using a cl_cmdrate setting that > > causes warping. They are purposely doing this to become > harder to hit. > > This has been deemed a rate hack by quite a few people both > on and off this list. > > > > In response to this widespread rate hack, some of us server > ops would > > like to see the minimum raised or worst case the cvar to be locked > > totally, and determined by valve depending on how you ping > to their servers. > > > > So please don't come at us in this fashion, instead seek out those > > that would hack this rate and confront them. We are merely dealing > > with a problem we are facing every day. And asking valve to > help us. > > By default, the lowest cmdrate I have ever seen steam assign is 30. > > People who are using lower settings on broadband know what they are > > doing. They are doing it purposely and unbalancing the > playing field > > with their intentional warping, hence cheating. > > > > StealthMode > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the > list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:45:15 -0800 From: m0gely <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Plugins for AdminMod Reply-To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Edson Sossai wrote: > M0gely > > Why you basically change from AdminMod to AMX? I used AMX for years > and i= always liked. The probleam was that my server was really lagging when sone= body said to give it a try to AdminMod because is to way less CPU usage and= true or not my server never choke or froze after i switched to AdminMod. > > Does that make sense at all? Or i was probably with some bad AMX > plugins = running that caused that? I know is hard to answers without seem the server= and stuff but this thing about AMX being much more CPU Usage than AdminMod= it really true? A while ago I did some performance testing with Adminmod and AMX. In their default configuration, and with a few light weight plugins added to each, neither one showed any significant cpu load over the other at 16 players. Certainly AMX & AMXx have the potential more so than Adminmod to bog down a machine, but with any of the three in their default states I don't think there is an issue. On the AMX forum (I'm on their team) I see people complain of performance at times. Of those people that complain, I will ask them to show me their plugins.ini for AMX and usually they've added 30 more plugins to the list. A third of which conflict with default or other 3rd party plugins they added. Several people had no idea what some of those plugins they added even did. (!) Now I'm not saying this is you, but try the default install and see what happens. Then add a couple plugins at a time and keep an eye on things. -- - m0gely http://quake2.telestream.com/ Q2 | Q3A | Counter-strike --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "K2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <hlds@list.valvesoftware.com> Subject: RE: [hlds] cl_cmdrate.... Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:53:30 -1000 Reply-To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com James, there's no reason for me to optimize my server for slower connections. The average ping on my server is around 40ms. Anyone with a ping consistently higher than 250ms usually gets the boot. My server settings are set inline to get optimal performance for broadband players (sv_maxrate at 20000, sv_minrate at 2000 which doesn't seem to work) and being set at a tickrate at 66 (not gonna post all my settings here, but thx Whisper for the guide and leg work). Right now my sv_maxunlag is set for 0.5, which is CAL standard (I get a significant amount of league players). If I am missing something with THAT setting, by all means, enlighten us. But the fact of the matter is, any player coming into MY server and most everybody else's server, with a cl_cmdrate lower than default, is creating a condition to where they have an unfair advantage over other players. Period. Throw figures and calculations at me all ya want, that doesn't change what I see happening when a player logs into my server with the express purpose of rate hacking. And it's obviously not an isolated incident - otherwise there wouldn't be such a debate about it, now would there? - K2 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Tucker Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 9:21 AM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: RE: [hlds] cl_cmdrate.... Now look, you clearly haven't done your homework, and this is why I get so goddamn riled over this issue, which people eventually come to agree over, then a couple of months later, the same stupid suggestion is made. 30 is ONLY the default for broadband settings in Steam. You clearly DON'T as I said in my last mail, have any experience optimising slower links or servers for clients with slower links. If you think cl_cmdrate < 30 is a problem - you haven't tested in a sandboxed environment. -I HAVE. IT WORKS FINE. I DID POST A TEST SERVER ADDRESS AS PROOF, WHICH YOU FAILED TO CHECK. I know I was rude, but there is a reason, -the community never bloody listens-. It's not targeted at any particular individual, but the NOTION that your suggestions are workable. Before you know it, half the CS:S community are crying out for something that will only damage the gameplay of nearly half the community. Talk about self harm. You may want to have _some_ restriction put on cl_cmdrate, however, above 30 IS NOT IT. (Note, there is one, which I think also hasn't been noticed, it's 10). Once again, as I said in my previous mail, settings of cl_cmdrate 12 SHOULD NOT CREATE LAG. If they do, your server or client or both are malconfigured. This is a fact, please figure this one out before you respond with the same thing again, as I've seen it enough times already. Cl_interpolate 0 does not help clients win, again, unless your server is malconfigured. The bug that allows for cl_interpolate 0 and cl_interp still to delay _may_ contribute to some kills, however we have proven that if someone can react so accurately to clear space, accurately with a Xms delay, they can react just as well seeing in the first place. In short, it's not really an advantage, people just think it is, and whinge. In case you've never noticed, the only players that whinge are players that are loosing at the time, and this accounts for most of the CS:S community. The game isn't broken, the player isn't playing properly. Yes, CS:S is the kind of game where you die very very quickly if you're not on good form, and YES it is frustrating, especially for most kids. This IS the true source of most of the community complaints, the rest are from malconfigurations. Now please, if you want to suggest some restrictions or major changes to the game's netcode, would you please be so kind as to research ALL areas of it's use first. Not just focus on one server and one sub-community of settings. With regard to cl_updaterate and cl_cmdrate interacting with sv_minupdaterate: You are correct that sv_minupdaterate does not affect cl_cmdrate, however it is also the case that cl_cmdrate has a minimum setting of 10. If sv_maxunlag is set to 1, you can miss over 100 packets before the server refuses to unlag. If are observing a player with these settings, then a cl_interp 0.1 will allow 10 losses prior to a warp, if you have cl_interp 0.05 it's only 5. The round trip time between you and the server can also affect this, as mismatched rates will not allow for the significant turn around time of 100ms + enemy ping + server delay + your ping + your interp. Once again, there are server settings required to alleviate the problem, along with reasonable client settings. Just out of interest, with those same players on have you tried "revert all" on both the client and the server? Finally, a note about some wireless players ("the common warp" / "warp factor nine") - I have noticed that there are an increasing number of wireless users who have been encouraged to turn their rates down to help warping issues. These players seem to have no understanding of the reason behind their periodic choke+/loss issues. FYI - wireless (802.11(a/b/g)) does not provide a stable continual packet stream - all suggestions to the contrary are false. As a consiquence of this, wireless users, depending on their configuration, frame sizes and TDMA policy will receive lag occasionally. This is a problem BELOW the IP layer, and is NOT solvable by client or server settings. Wireless clients should be encouraged to go get wires. N.B. This does not apply to long range microwave links (necessarily), however these links have typically higher latency than copper anyway, and aren't used too much in this industry. > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of K2 > Sent: 21 November 2005 18:05 > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: RE: [hlds] cl_cmdrate.... > > Alright, lemme clear up any mis-understanding. What would be ideal is > if certain cvars, such as cl_cmdrate, were limited to limited range of > settings. That range being 30 (default) up to 100 would be ideal. > Going lower than 30 for cl_cmdrate is where we start to have issues. > > For a cvar like cl_interpolate, that's something in my opinion that > should be locked in at 1. > > Sorry for any confusion there. > > - K2 > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 7:08 AM > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: RE: [hlds] cl_cmdrate.... > > -- > [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] This is what got me > started: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of K2 > > Sent: Sun 11/20/2005 9:06 PM > > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > > Subject: RE: [hlds] cl_cmdrate.... > > > > > > I have also recently emailed Alfred about a few things, and did > > mention certain cvars (cl_cmdrate was one of 'em) that at > this point > > need to be locked down or at the very least under the realm of > > sv_cheats. If enough admins voice their concerns, maybe > something will > > be > done about it. > > > > - K2 > > > I don't want Alfred thinking you speak for me on this one. > As a player and as an admin. > > --Ozz > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > Ozz, please... Read the entire thread before posting. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 1:24 AM > > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > > Subject: RE: [hlds] cl_cmdrate.... > > > > -- > > [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] why should > cl_cmdrate > > be considered a cheat cvar or locked down????? As a player > I run at an > > 85 cmdrate OR ELSE I GET CHOKE CONSTANTLY. Why the hell do > you want to > > 'fix' a client side rate setting anyway?? Just because a server is > > hooked up to a xx MB/s line does not mean the client is as > > fortunate!!! > > > > Add to that, I need to run a cl_updaterate of 15 for servers I ping > > over 50 for, whereas I can run this setting at 100 or even 200 on > > low-ping > servers. > > > > > > Instead of suggesting locking this or locking that or > messing up this > > rate value etc, why don't you find a config that works and > on top of > > that stop inducing choke and loss with low rate settings on the > > server. All you are doing is ruining a game experience by > making the > > game 'unfun' with skippy erratic response and it just turns > people off. > > > > > > Until then, leave the client settings alone. We don't appreciate it. > > > > --Ozz > > > > p.s. yes I run servers too. > > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > > > Actually, 20 is too low for cl_cmdrate - 30 is the > default setting > > > for > > that. > > > I agree that having a usable range for that cvar is a > better option. > > > Some cvars however, like cl_interpolate, need to be > locked down to 1. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Rick Payton > > > Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 9:03 PM > > > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > > > Subject: RE: [hlds] cl_cmdrate.... > > > > > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > > -- > > > How about locking it down to a specific range? Like 20 to > 100 - no > > > higher, and definately no lower? It's a good command to leave > > > adjustable, as I regularly adjust mine depending on the server I > > > play > on. > > > > > > Make to where if someone puts in a value between 0-19, it > defaults > > > to > 20. > > > > > > Rick Payton, IT Support > > > Morikawa & Associates > > > (808) 572-1745 > > > http://www.mai-hawaii.com/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of K2 > > > Sent: Sun 11/20/2005 9:06 PM > > > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > > > Subject: RE: [hlds] cl_cmdrate.... > > > > > > > > > I have also recently emailed Alfred about a few things, and did > > > mention certain cvars (cl_cmdrate was one of 'em) that at > this point > > > need to be locked down or at the very least under the realm of > > > sv_cheats. If enough admins voice their concerns, maybe something > > > will be > > done about it. > > > > > > - K2 > > > -- > > > [ winmail.dat of type application/ms-tnef deleted ] > > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > > > archives, please visit: > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > > > archives, please > > > visit: > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the > list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the > list archives, > > please > > visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > -- > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:22:32 -0500 From: "StealthMode" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [hlds] cl_cmdrate.... To: <hlds@list.valvesoftware.com> Reply-To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Mr. Tucker, Did my homework, been doing my homework as a server admin since oh 1999-2000 or so. cmdrate was in previous versions as well. I started out on 56k dialup through aohell. So I know a thing or two about optimizing. My cmdrate in those days was 25, and my updaterate was 30. Those were my optimized settings with no loss no choke (even on AOHell), unless there were network issues from the isp or the gsp. This new mis-use of this cvar is mostly by broadband users who have no reason to be using a cmdrate setting that low anyway. And lets be honest, its valves game, they should be the determiner of what the rates should be for any given connection. Problem is its changable in its present form, and being abused by a multitude of persons. Cal in its infinite wisdom stopped anyone from using a cmdrate below 10, but this value is still too low for broadband users. I agree a minimum of 25-30 would be nice. Still not updating to the server as fast as most broadband users (those using 100 cmdrate such as myself). In the end its connection dependent, and I would like to see valve determine the value based on upload speed, and once valve determined that value it to be locked and unchangable on a local client. What about slowband you say? Well, this idea I had while reading your argument. Lets say valve had a different ruleset for each connection type. Lets say slowband had a maximum cap of say 50, and a minimum cap say of 20-25. Perfectly reasonable. Lets hypothesis further and say how about a cap of 100 and a minimum of 30 for any broadband users. This would ensure slowband got what they needed, and broadband got a minimum cap where it was needed. This is what I am sure my fellow admins who are petitioning valve (like myself) are recommending in their private emails to valve offlist. And I hate to say it, but a double standard would be needed but valve would need to be the determining factor because to be honest some people just aren't (honest). We can also look at it from this point of view. Broadband has been out for many years in many areas. 56k is kind of like the 300 baud modem, a thing of the past. The game's bare minimums support 56k barely. In almost every resource I have checked it is recommended that you get broadband if you wish to play this game. Satelite, wireless, as you have pointed out have latency, and should never be used for real time gaming. There are countless articles published on the web that support this fact. To these persons I would recommend a different type of service if this is what they want to do with their online time. Dsl, and cable are in just about every area nowadays in one form or another. If they choose to play over wireless that is their choice, and they should accept the fact they are going to get "lag", packet choke and loss. Now, to addresss the optimizations because of dialup, like I said, broadband is recommended. See my comparison of dialup above. And no amount of "optimizing" on your part is going to fix a network issue with an isp. Because your fix today may not work tommorow, because networks ARE that unstable. Now imagine each and every time you logged into source, your rates were determined automatically by valve servers. So no matter how your connection was today or yesteday or tommorow, you would have a smooth game courtesy of vALVE, in an ideal world, this is what we would have. (Crosses fingers) StealthMode --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:04:51 -0800 (PST) From: "CyberGameZone.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [hlds] Plugins for AdminMod To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Reply-To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Another good admin tool is UAIO admin. I actually have AMXX, AdminMOD and UAIO admin and CPU has been fine. -DOA CyberGameZone.com m0gely <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Edson Sossai wrote: > M0gely > > Why you basically change from AdminMod to AMX? I used AMX for years > and i= always liked. The probleam was that my server was really lagging when sone= body said to give it a try to AdminMod because is to way less CPU usage and= true or not my server never choke or froze after i switched to AdminMod. > > Does that make sense at all? Or i was probably with some bad AMX > plugins = running that caused that? I know is hard to answers without seem the server= and stuff but this thing about AMX being much more CPU Usage than AdminMod= it really true? A while ago I did some performance testing with Adminmod and AMX. In their default configuration, and with a few light weight plugins added to each, neither one showed any significant cpu load over the other at 16 players. Certainly AMX & AMXx have the potential more so than Adminmod to bog down a machine, but with any of the three in their default states I don't think there is an issue. On the AMX forum (I'm on their team) I see people complain of performance at times. Of those people that complain, I will ask them to show me their plugins.ini for AMX and usually they've added 30 more plugins to the list. A third of which conflict with default or other 3rd party plugins they added. Several people had no idea what some of those plugins they added even did. (!) Now I'm not saying this is you, but try the default install and see what happens. Then add a couple plugins at a time and keep an eye on things. -- - m0gely http://quake2.telestream.com/ Q2 | Q3A | Counter-strike _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, plea= se visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds YIM: cybergamezone2002 Gaming Portal and Clan Website: http://www.cybergamezone.com Main email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Ron Saunders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <hlds@list.valvesoftware.com> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:20:38 -0500 Subject: [hlds] (no subject) Reply-To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] I am trying to set up a dedicated server, my server has Windows 2000 Server= Edition, and when ever I start up steam it runs good for a while and after= a few mins it just stops and crashes, I do have the latest version of stea= m as well. Before the last steam update the same thing happend but, steam w= ouldnt even start. So I was wondering if there was something I could do to = correct this problem? -- --__--__-- _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds End of hlds Digest _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
