FYI: A non profit organization makes no profit because every dime they earn is either invested in salary or other activities the company has, in this case bandwidth, hardware etc etc. It basically means in the end of the day your balance is always 0 more or less and its owners make no extra money besides their monthly salary.
I am with NFO on this one. Slightly higher prices are often from companies with much better equipment, tools and support. -----Original Message----- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Cc2iscooL Sent: dinsdag 26 mei 2009 11:04 To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Anyone use Sigma servers >NFO does not even make a profit, so overcharging doesn't come into play >here. If they're not making a profit, then how do they afford to pay for anything new or afford to do anything? That doesn't make any sense. >We were talking about L4D. L4D is limited to 30fps and that is the most that >anyone can offer. >If you want to talk about Orangebox/Source/GoldSrc games, then we can do >that too, although you and I already did in a prior exchange. In the case of >those engines, there are plenty of providers that offer 1000fps servers and >it's mainly a case of supply and demand. Professional teams swear by >high-tickrate/high-FPS servers, so it's not entirely hype. Mostly a placebo, but you can justify it either way. Hype, placebo, same thing. There's a point where more FPS actually doesn't change anything. I've still yet to see any proven tests that state that players get better registration or anything on a 2000 FPS server versus a 200 FPS server. Let's do some science! I'm willing to be proved wrong, but there's nothing in my personal experience that I've *ever* noticed that changes anything as long as the server's FPS is at least tickrate or better. Obviously overhead is always good, but I still have to say I've never noticed the difference between 2000 FPS and 200 in all my time playing Source games. It usually just ends up being the "well my fps is better than yours" which is the usual ego fight. I'd like to see an actual report on where extra FPS becomes useless, as it would definitely enlighten me. >I don't want to compare to specific providers, but NFO uses some of the most >expensive bandwidth out there and has a very strong focus on performance and >service. These factors have costs associated with them. Other providers that >use different bandwidth, load machines differently, and have different >service levels will have different prices as a result. Some providers may >over- or under-charge for the service, but as I mentioned before, >Nuclearfallout does not make a profit. Again, if they don't make a profit, how do they stay in business? If you break even you lose money. If the owner is spending 40 hours a week maintaining servers and expanding and they're breaking even it means he's not making any money for himself. Doesn't make sense. I realize bandwidth is expensive, and if you're right on the backbone it's more expensive, but if you're not making money then you're wasting time. I don't think NFO has been breaking even for years, otherwise they'd have shut down long ago. >I'm not arguing that the high-end hosts are right for everyone, but they are >not as overpriced as you have indicated. There is oftentimes quite a bit of >value found in buying a slightly more expensive service. I understand the meaning "you get what you pay for." Unfortunately it doesn't always apply. It would be nice if paying more always gave you better, but you and I both know that's not true. If it were, LayeredTech would be the best dedicated server company ever. :) >Naturally you can save quite a bit of money by renting a dedicated server. >(although I'm not sure what type of server you're talking about here). Many >hosts, including NFO, offer these side by side with game servers and they >are typically a good value, but only if you have the time to set everything >up yourself, don't need the extra freebies and support that a game server >would offer, have the extra money and need for multiple servers, and don't >need quite as good of performance. Don't need quite as good performance? You must be joking. There are standards for everything these days when it comes to players. I do agree that the services they offer are nice, but they certainly aren't unique to NFO. They also charge a lot more for the extras than other providers. >I think you have learned, and know now, a lot more than you realize. That >reflects well upon you. The better GSPs will have your level of knowledge >and more, and they will have already applied it to their machine >configurations, fully automatic systems, and so on. That also means >customers can talk to live support staffmembers who know what they're doing >and are willing to quickly walk them through all sorts of issues that crop >up. Of course. >There's a lot to be said for starting off with a well-established, >quality-oriented host that has a good reputation -- then potentially going >from there to a dedicated server or a lower-end host. And there's no harm in >taking advantage of the free trials that many GSPs offer, to see if the >performance is all it's cracked up to be. The only problem with their "free trials" is that unless your group is already fully established, it'll be hard to get a full load of people in there to actually test the durability of the server. There are different expectation levels for different payments as well, with NFO you'd expect to get a server that runs 100% all the time, whereas a host at $1 a slot you'd expect to have some issues. The problem is, you don't always get what you pay for, and you won't always be able to test these hosts fully...how many new IP's are you willing to subject your community to? In my experience, even with weeks of advance notice and advertising on the MOTD and in-game, you still lose people switching IP addresses, so once you're hooked up with a specific provider it's hard to move away (seeing as Valve doesn't ever want to support dynamic IP addresses...grr) without losing members. Not to mention the more times you switch providers and IP's the less competent you seem to your userbase. To be honest, the only reputation I've ever heard NFO of having was an expensive one. Virtually every server I've seen on NFO doesn't last more than a few months due to cost, but I've heard complaints about service in the past. Probably goes hand-in-hand with the cost factor. People who pay that much expect that their servers not have any problem whatsoever, and it's not the truth. Networks will get hit, routers get clogged (cough Level3), servers crash, hardware dies, datacenters blow up...etc. All in all it's still personal preference, but paying a ton extra a slot for minimal extras still isn't worth it. If you have money on your side though, feel free. -- Cc2iscooL Head Admin/Owner http://www.cc2iscool.com On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 3:08 AM, John <lists.va...@nuclearfallout.net>wrote: > > Yes, but there's a difference between a quality cost and overcharging for > > the same service, > > NFO does not even make a profit, so overcharging doesn't come into play > here. > > > and over-hyping something that doesn't even matter > > (anything more than 1000 fps serverside, hell, even 500 fps is pushing > > it.) > > We were talking about L4D. L4D is limited to 30fps and that is the most > that > anyone can offer. > > If you want to talk about Orangebox/Source/GoldSrc games, then we can do > that too, although you and I already did in a prior exchange. In the case > of > those engines, there are plenty of providers that offer 1000fps servers and > it's mainly a case of supply and demand. Professional teams swear by > high-tickrate/high-FPS servers, so it's not entirely hype. > > > To be honest a lot of times the smaller companies will give you better > > support if you pay a few dollars extra for those services over a large > > business. For instance, Branzone. They're not huge right now, but they're > > not tiny either. You pay a couple extra bucks for the same thing, I get a > > response to tickets usually within 10-20 minutes, but you also don't > > overpay > > for the same service. > > I don't want to compare to specific providers, but NFO uses some of the > most > expensive bandwidth out there and has a very strong focus on performance > and > service. These factors have costs associated with them. Other providers > that > use different bandwidth, load machines differently, and have different > service levels will have different prices as a result. Some providers may > over- or under-charge for the service, but as I mentioned before, > Nuclearfallout does not make a profit. > > > Is any host perfect? No. Is it worth it, in my > > opinion, to pay the extra bucks for a NFO server? Absolutely not. > > I'm not arguing that the high-end hosts are right for everyone, but they > are > not as overpriced as you have indicated. There is oftentimes quite a bit of > value found in buying a slightly more expensive service. > > > For the > > same price as a dedicated server (where I can run 3-4 of the same server > > mentioned) it costs the same as 1.8 servers through NFO. > > Naturally you can save quite a bit of money by renting a dedicated server > (although I'm not sure what type of server you're talking about here). Many > hosts, including NFO, offer these side by side with game servers and they > are typically a good value, but only if you have the time to set everything > up yourself, don't need the extra freebies and support that a game server > would offer, have the extra money and need for multiple servers, and don't > need quite as good of performance. > > > While I do > > understand the support aspect, game servers are *really* not that hard to > > run yourself. I taught myself how to do it with a bit of google searching > > and toiling. That was over three years ago, I'm still learning, > > I think you have learned, and know now, a lot more than you realize. That > reflects well upon you. The better GSPs will have your level of knowledge > and more, and they will have already applied it to their machine > configurations, fully automatic systems, and so on. That also means > customers can talk to live support staffmembers who know what they're doing > and are willing to quickly walk them through all sorts of issues that crop > up. > > > I don't mean to make this a fight, but seriously, it's overrated. Some > > things you do have to learn first-hand though. :) > > There's a lot to be said for starting off with a well-established, > quality-oriented host that has a good reputation -- then potentially going > from there to a dedicated server or a lower-end host. And there's no harm > in > taking advantage of the free trials that many GSPs offer, to see if the > performance is all it's cracked up to be. > > -John > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.39/2133 - Release Date: 05/25/09 18:14:00 _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
