Thanks for your input, Jeremy. I must respectfully disagree, though, with your assertion that hacks can't make "good" recordings. I've heard and worked with many so-called "artists" both pop and classical whose live playing or singing did not live up to their recordings. I've been on many recording sessions where this was the result though not in the major orchestras I've played in except with a slight few soloists who got take after take to fix their mediocre crap. As to digital editing, the last jingle date I was on in MN before my "retirement" was a track job adding brass to a synthesized track of rhythm and strings. 4 each of trumpets, trombones and horns recording separately. We did a few takes of each spot which were pretty much the same except for the length as they were making 15, 30 and 60 second spots. Fairly difficult mid-upper register mostly unison and octave horn parts. When we were told "Finished, thank you," there was one long note that was obviously out of tune on the last take and I asked "Don't you think we need another pass on that?" "No. We got it thanks." I then went into the booth, gave my opinion again and asked to hear it. The engineer played it and bent the intonation digitally with a slider on the board until the offending passage was perfectly in tune. He also showed me how he could change tempi and fix ensemble without changing the pitch. I was amazed, to say the least. I also think that your story about 120 takes for a 3.5 minute piece appears to validate, rather than dispute, what I am saying. It took a professional horn section about 20 minutes to record the 1.75 minutes of music I mention above, sight read and rather difficult. How long did the session(s) go for your 120 takes? My teacher, Prof. I.M Gestopftmitscheist, is coming out soon with his new electronic product "French Horn Hero" which will give all a chance to play great without even a lesson or a Kopprasch book! The "horn" that comes with the package will be available in Geyer, Kruspe, Sansone Single 5V Bb, Schmidt, Alex 103, Conn 6D, Wienerhorn and Lawson wraps with a choice of finishes including "aged, unlacquered yellow brass" and "Automotive Rose Tinted Metallic Clear Coat." If successful, he will release "Wagner Tube Hero" and "Viola Hero" later on. The software includes all the repertoire for the horn ever written, including movie tracks, performed in various venues. Titles will be priced individually or in packages and there will be several plug-ins available. "Build Your Own Horn" is one and "Design a Really Deep Mouthpiece" is another. Another plug-in will allow you to build your own hall or recording studio with any acoustic, decor and audience members that you want, including groupies and parents. If you want the "Virtual Conductor Plug-in," that will be a significant extra expense for pretty much nothing in the way of help but these conductors will never say things to you like "Late," "Shorter," or "Try not to crack." The Prof. be demonstrating the beta version of this at KBHC with regular customers from Wal-Mart in Littleton performing. Most of them only have one or two teeth so this will show that it really works! KB In a message dated 2/23/2009 1:02:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, horn-requ...@music.memphis.edu writes:
message: 3 date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:55:50 -0500 from: "Jeremy Cucco" <jer...@sublymerecords.com> subject: RE: [Hornlist] Recording Techniques, Was: RE: Mason Jones Passes For original text, see below... The process of recording and editing are actually quite similar to the days of analog. In fact, the processes really haven't changed. Some producers and engineers may do things a little differently (some of which is driven by the technology but most is not), but overall, the processes haven't changed. Whenever I do a recording either as the engineer or producer (or both), I still think of editing as the act of cutting and splicing, just like I were still using a razor and tape. Granted, crossfades between sections are vastly easier with digital technology, but this never factors into my thinking. I've worked with conductors that decide how we're going to run the session and many others who simply say - "you're the Producer/Engineer, you run the session." In most cases, we'll do a single or maybe 2 runs through of the entire work. We'll mark areas that need special attention and then we'll go back and fix those areas. It's not uncommon to get 2 solid, full-length takes and then about 50 takes for each 2-3 minute section of the work. However, let me kindly and respectfully put to bed one rumor - A hack cannot put out a good recording. A good recording is made good by its impeccable playing, balance, phrasing, finesse and professionalism. If you don't have these things to begin with, the recording engineer cannot put them into the recording. While 30 takes may be expended getting one section to sound flawless, a bad orchestra would never get this sounding right. Period. This doesn't change whether you're recording to 2" 24 track tape or digital/hard disk. The physical act of splicing is immaterial to the process as it can be done equally effective in both mediums. Granted a physical cut and splice with razors and tape can take a little longer (and you really only get one shot at it). That being said, it is very common to run a recording session just as you mention it below as well. I'll often do recording sessions where we record until a clam and then back up a couple measures or a phrase or two (to give adequate space for the splice) and then continue. I just did a lengthy recording session on a world premier recording for Howard Shore (of Hollywood fame - Lord of the Rings and several others) where we did a hybrid approach. We did the stop and go approach that you describe and then followed it up with a couple top-to-bottom takes. In all, for a 3.5 minute track, there were about 120 takes. This is not a bad thing and by no means indicates that the singers were anything less than professional. In fact, the very fact that take 120 was a *good* take is a sign of their professionalism and stamina! Most of the time, we would cut for simple things like a slight imbalance or a cut-off not being together. Will the final product be absolutely perfect? Nah... Will it be close? As close as possible. Will it be devoid of emotion and feeling? Not a chance. These professionals put their all into every take and never let down once. No "hack" could do this. They would have given up after take 20. Also, another poster made a comment about the technology of the 50s and 60s being good enough to preserve but not distract or detract (paraphrasing). While some of this is true, some is not. Microphones and some of the front-end technologies of the 50s and 60s indeed were quite good. In fact, some of those pieces of gear are still sought after and used today in professional choral and orchestral settings. However, the recording medium and some of the other electronics were not. One of the biggest problems was the noise and distortion that were imparted by these technologies. In state-of-the-art digital recordings, I'm able to capture a dynamic range of nearly 80dB. This means that the peak of the recording is 80dB above the quietest level. This isn't too far off of the maximum capabilities of the CD itself. However, audio tape of the 50s and 60s often peaked at a signal to noise ratio of only 72dB - meaning that the highest level would only be 72dB above the noise of the medium itself (mild over-simplification). In a quiet, well-constructed hall, using high-resolution digital technologies, I've gotten a peak-to-noise differential of over 100dB. This means that, if the maximum level played back through your stereo system at home hits a peak of 105 dB (a very loud system indeed, but entirely possible with even a modest home listening system), the noise of the room and the equipment itself would only appear as a 5dB signal coming through the speakers. The amplifier you're using to listen through likely puts out more sound than that. With analog tape, you're going to have the inherent hiss associated with it as well as any distortion due to misaligned or magnetized heads. I consider myself a HUGE fan and supporter of analog technologies. However, they do have their limitations. Digital done well is worth a listen. Digital done poorly is annoying. Cheers- Jeremy Kendall Betts wrote: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Recordings were a cut and paste affair in the days of analog tape. You'd play until a clam, stop, back up and continue. There might be a few patches after the piece or movement was finished. Rarely did you play straight through without a clam stop. Since the late 80's with the advent of digital recording you generally play through the piece several times. If the producer/conductor/engineer feel that they don't have everything they need at that point, a few patches might be done or another whole run through. They generally pick the best overall performance and edit it from the other takes. Once in a while, something goes great and needs no editing. This happened in MN when we recorded "Don Juan" with Eiji Oue. We ran it down, everyone was happy, and the release is truly "live and unedited." The plus side now is "cleaner" technical product. The negative side is that in the old days, you needed a damn fine group of musicians to make decent recordings. Now, any bunch of hacks can get a "great" recording given enough time (and money). What this has done, along with other changes in the business (most notably the lack of full time music directors with any kind of vision beyond their own jet-set careers) is to destroy the individuality of orchestras, worldwide. Personally, I mourn the loss of regional and international "sounds" and lament the generic results attained in the recording industry today. It's all about product now, not music, IMHO. I definitely miss performers such as Lucien Thevet, Gottfried von Freiberg, Domenico Ceccarossi, Georges Barbeteau, Aubrey and Dennis Brain, Alan Civil, Vitaly Buyanovsky, and of course, Mason Jones! It is a continuing delight (and education) for me, though, to hear Hermann Baumann perform when he comes to KBHC! I encourage all serious horn players to get old recordings of both soloists and orchestras and study these styles and learn why they played the way they did. I feel that there is now a certain emotional element missing from most new recordings and you can't be sure of the performers' technical skills, either, sue to the editing capabilities in our digital age. It's not quite sampled midi yet but it seems to get closer to that all the time. When is the last time you heard live musicians on a jingle? I will say, though, that the Vienna Philharmonic has retained it's individuality better than any other, for some very obvious reasons such as the Vienna horns and oboes. The most obvious, though, is the dogged determination of its musicians to maintain their traditions of playing. What other orchestra places the snare drummer in the clarinet section and then the guy plays his part like he's in a chamber group in regard to balance? NO ONE! Ah, don't get me started! When I want to listen to symphonic music, I listen to re-issues of 78's and LP's of the likes of Stokowski, Bruno Walter, Bernstein, Toscanini, Klemperer, von Karajan, Cluytens, etc. When I want to listen to horn soloists from a "student" perspective these days, I dig out my recordings of Hermann, Dennis and Mason, first. I do like this idea now that the LSO and Berlin are doing in offering recordings of live performances both in the hall and on line. It is difficult to tell them apart on recordings, though, these days. I always liked, despite the obvious stress, that in MN we went out live on MPR every Friday night though I think there was some editing done for the national re-broadcasts on NPR by using tapes of the other performances of the week. I would hope that serious students who perhaps can't attend live orchestra concerts on a regular basis would avail themselves the opportunity to hear recorded live performances, though. There really is no substitute for hearing an orchestra live, though, especially in its home venue. But, then again, I may be just another "Ol' Faht" at this point and "youngins" know best. I report, you decide! KB In a message dated 2/20/2009 1:00:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, horn-requ...@music.memphis.edu writes: date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:07:12 -0500 from: "Joe Scarpelli" <joescarpe...@earthlink.net> subject: RE: [Hornlist] Mason Jones Passes I would like to relay a story I heard from Fred Hinger who was a percussionist in Philly during Mr. Jones' tenure. I met Fred when he was at the Met circa 1968 while he was residing in an apartment building where I worked just after High School. Here it goes: When they were recording, if Mason heard something he didn't like in the Horn section, he would kick over his stand which would of course force them to start over. It wasn't clear if this was a onetime occurrence or multiple. Kendall perhaps you validate this story. I hope it is true. I loved it as it you can see it stayed with me for 40 years. Joe **************Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax professional in your neighborhood today. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filing&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000004) _______________________________________________ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
