Tom,
As Sue Hares said:
"The first stage of a yang model is joyous. You decide what goes in. The
second of getting a prototype yang model implementation is hard work.
The
third stage of getting the model approved in the IETF environment is
frustrating and painful. During the second and third stage, most WGs
have
trouble keeping up the energy - since it is all about the small details of
Yang."
All the I2NSF YANG models are at their third stage, with small changes, which
is difficult for non-editors to keep up.
Can you review Paul and his team revisions before they upload revision?
Thank you very much for your continued support to improve the YANG models.
Linda
-----Original Message-----
From: t petch <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2022 12:10 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <[email protected]>; Roman Danyliw <[email protected]>;
[email protected]
Cc: Patrick Lingga <[email protected]>; Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong
<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: IETF 113 session in comparing
draft-ietf-i2nsf-consumer-facing-interface-dm &
draft-ietf-i2nsf-nsf-facing-interface-dm
On 25/03/2022 14:39, Linda Dunbar wrote:
> Tom,
>
> At IETF 113 I2NSF session, we had a good discussion of the comparison of
> draft-ietf-i2nsf-consumer-facing-interface-dm &
> draft-ietf-i2nsf-nsf-facing-interface-dm, from Top Level YANG Tree, Event,
> Condition and Action.
>
> Here is the summary:
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdata
> tracker.ietf.org%2Fmeeting%2F113%2Fmaterials%2Fslides-113-i2nsf-compar
> ison-of-consumer-facing-and-nsf-facing-data-models-00&data=04%7C01
> %7Clinda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7Cb8b83f05fa904d406b2008da0e824533%7C0
> fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637838249925611459%7CUnknown
> %7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJ
> XVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=PpLBu4%2FqvNKaNfjTmtBZQlL6%2B3zjHcx815DA3
> IqzG74%3D&reserved=0
>
> Since you didn't join the discussion, can you please look over the comparison
> and see if they are any issues?
Linda
I did look at the slides when they arrived.
What I deduced some time ago, and see that the current charter specifies, is
that it is the Capability Layer that has primacy, that 'Only simple Service
Layer policies that are modelled as closely as possible on the Capability Layer
are within scope.' It is then a question not of how close Consumer Facing and
Network Facing are (and yes, they are close) but how close each is to
Capability. I note that since I reviewed capability-26 there have been three
new versions of that and that the IESG have yet to confirm that the DISCUSS on
capability have been resolved; and while -29 has a change log - good - it only
gives the changes from -28 (best practice IMHO is have a change log going back
to the -00 that precedes adoption) so I have to look at
-27 to see what it changed and -28 to see what it changed (and no, I do not
want a .pdf giving OLD and NEW; a statement that e.g. references to
RFC4960 have been replaced with references to rfc4960bis I find much quicker to
deal with).
So, when the IESG are satisfied with capability I will look at the current
version and the others that have come out in-between and then look at the other
I-D after that; and yes, the I-D will likely be in the RFC Editor Queue by
then:-(.
IN passing, a comment that others have made and which I would endorse is that
the authors seem unfamiliar with the usage of 'i.e.' and 'e.g.'
which in places changes the technical meaning. I suspect that that will still
be the case in the most recent I-D.
Tom Petch
>
> Thank you very much,
>
> Linda Dunbar
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: t petch <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 6:03 AM
> To: Roman Danyliw <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; Linda Dunbar
> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>;
> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Cc: Patrick Lingga
> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; Mr. Jaehoon Paul
> Jeong
> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Subject: Re: [I2nsf] WGLC for
> draft-ietf-i2nsf-consumer-facing-interface-dm-16
>
> On 20/03/2022 16:45, Roman Danyliw wrote:
>> Hi!
>>
>> Linda: Thanks sending out this assessment and ending the WGLC.
>>
>> WG: In additional to the IPR check, one other thing I will be looking for in
>> the second WGLC of this document is (a) evidence of review by the WG and (b)
>> support by the WG to publish it (irrespective of whether there is charter
>> milestone or not). There has been very little WG discussion of this
>> document on the mailing list in the last 18 months and no formal meetings
>> with it as a topic. Most discussions have been between a reduced set of
>> document authors and directorates reviews/IETF LC/IESG balloting feedback.
>> The last three documents sent to the IESG (-capability-data-model,
>> monitoring-data-model, nsf-facing-interface-dm) have required substantial
>> changes due to AD review, directorate review and IESG Review (to include
>> them all still being blocked with multiple (2-4) DISCUSSes). I want to make
>> sure that all future documents the WG requests publication on have gotten
>> the needed review in the WG.
>
> Roman
>
> Yes!
>
> I see capability-data-model as being the core I-D from which the others stem
> (ideally with a common module of YANG and definitions:-). I was still
> catching up with the repeated revisions of that when nsf-facing and
> nsf-monitoring went forward. IMHO the IESG could have had a easier time if
> the lessons of capability had been applied to the latter two before seeking
> to progress them; easy to say in hindsight.
>
> I think Ben's DISCUSS on capability 2/2/22 are key. He points out that the
> level of detail expected is unclear. What does monitoring on a routing
> header mean? All of them, including future ones, any one or what? Obvious
> now Ben has said so but I never thought of it. Looking back at RFC8329 I see
> no mention of routing headers being part of this work (where are the authors
> of RFC8329 when we need them?). Ben also comments that a base capability is
> ambiguous - can it be used per se as in derived-from-or self or only as
> derived-from? Likewise the resolution strategies are obvious until Ben
> points out that they are not defined anywhere that he (or I) can see. I note
> that one of them has disappeared from capabiity -26 but like most of the
> changes to this and the other I-Ds, there is no consensus for this change
> because there has been no discussion within the WG.
>
> This lack of consensus is to me the defining characteristic of the
> I2NSF WG. At AD review you asked for expanded definitions in a few
> cases and got them which seemed fine. Then a ..art reviewer asks for
> a whole lot more and gets them. As I commented, to me this is a lack
> of familiarity on the part of the ..art reviewer and for most people
> involved, like you, like me, like other ..art reviewers, the existing
> definitions are adequate. And this is a multi-headed hydra because
> the new text takes the I-D out of line with the other I-D (my bane),
> with other parts of the same I-D, and, as many have commented, the
> English often needs attention and so any change to the text is likely
> to generate further change and may even be unclear or worse. The
> changes made generate issues faster than I can point them out so the
> number of unfixed issues increases exponentially. Several of Ben's or
> Lars's textual comments I have marked in my copy as issues to raise
> when I have raised the larger, mo
re technical ones; I could have saved Ben and Lars some time (as a WG should
do).
>
> Out of many such I would highlight the use of 'l4' or 'layer4'. Some time
> ago I pointed out that this was unusual in the IETF, 'transport'
> being more common and this was duly changed in the identity. A reviewer of
> nsf-monitoring found the word 'port', used in the context of ipv4/ipv6,
> ambiguous and suggested 'l4port' which was duly incorporated in some parts of
> that particular I-D and not in others and not in the other I-Ds (my bane
> again). As before, I think the need to qualify 'port' is more of a comment
> on the reviewer and not on the I-D:-) Had the issue been raised on the list I
> would have objected!
>
> So:
> - the rate of change on these I-Ds is high (I have yet to catch up
> with all those that appeared in January and February)
> - no change has WG consensus because nothing is discussed on the WG
> list
> - changes are made to one part of one I-D without being reflected in
> other parts of that I-D or in the other related I-D
> - changes lack clarity and so raise further issues requiring change.
>
> For me, the root cause is the way of working of the WG, unlike any other I am
> involved with in that comments made by ...art, by me, do not get reviewed,
> discussed. Nothing has consensus. Coupled with this is the high rate of
> change induced by the authors - sometimes I can see where the change came
> from, other times I cannot - and the lack of a clear scope for the work, e.g.
> a lack of alignment with RFC8329 which ought to be the high-level definition
> of what this work is about.
>
> Tom Petch
>
>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Roman
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: I2nsf <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On
>>> Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 4:44 PM
>>> To: t petch <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; Mr. Jaehoon
>>> Paul Jeong
>>> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
>>> Cc: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>; Patrick Lingga
>>> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>;
>>> skku-iotlab- members
>>> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
>>> Subject: Re: [I2nsf] WGLC for
>>> draft-ietf-i2nsf-consumer-facing-interface-dm-16
>>>
>>> I2NSF WG,
>>>
>>> Since the comments from Tom Petch haven't been addressed, we can't
>>> complete the WGLC for draft-ietf-i2nsf-consumer-facing-interface-dm-16.
>>> Agree with Tom, the WG needs to reach consensus if it is necessary
>>> for the draft-ietf-i2nsf-consumer-facing-interface-dm to be
>>> consistent with the draft- ietf-i2nsf-nsf-facing-interface-dm.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Linda Dunbar
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: I2nsf <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On
>>> Behalf Of t petch
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 11:20 AM
>>> To: Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong
>>> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
>>> Cc: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>; Patrick Lingga
>>> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>;
>>> skku-iotlab- members
>>> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
>>> Subject: Re: [I2nsf] WGLC for
>>> draft-ietf-i2nsf-consumer-facing-interface-dm-16
>>>
>>> On 02/03/2022 14:40, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong wrote:
>>>> Hi Tom,
>>>> Patrick and I are finalizing the revision of the NSF-Facing
>>>> Interface YANG Data Model Draft this week.
>>>
>>> If I read it aright, the cut-off for updated I-D for the upcoming
>>> IETF is next Monday. after which the system is in purdah for a while.
>>> The IETF website might tell me about the latter (if it had a search
>>> engine:-)
>>>
>>> Tom Petch
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> After this revision, we will reflect the comments from IESG on this
>>>> Consumer-Facing Interface YANG Data Model Draft.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your comments.
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 9:31 PM t petch
>>>> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 17/02/2022 17:00, Linda Dunbar wrote:
>>>>>> Hello Working Group,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many thanks to the authors to address all the comments from YANG
>>>>>> Doctor
>>>>> review.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This email starts a three-weeks Working Group Last Call for
>>>>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2F
>>>>> d
>>>>> at
>>>>> atracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-i2nsf-consumer-facing-interfa
>>>>> c
>>>>> e-
>>>>>
>>> dm%2F&data=04%7C01%7Clinda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7C0fd53b96
>>> 2cbb4
>>>>>
>>> 208379608d9fc70f6f5%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7
>>> C6378
>>>>>
>>> 18384373805664%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC
>>> JQIjoiV2
>>>>>
>>> luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=F7VLxYYqc6kp
>>> xD3
>>>>> w15O7Lewbot4zMgkGcozhpKViuJY%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that this is premature. As ever, there is substantial
>>>>> overlap with other I-D in the set, notably nsf-facing, and, as
>>>>> ever, the two I-D do things differently which I think can only
>>>>> confuse. If there is a reason for the differences, then that
>>>>> needs calling out IMHO; at the moment it seems arbitrary, such as
>>>>> which ...art reviewer last
>>> saw the I-D!
>>>>>
>>>>> Further, nsf-facing has just attracted a large number of comments
>>>>> from IESG Review, many if not most of which apply here. I think
>>>>> it wrong for the IESG to be asked to do the same work all over
>>>>> again so I think that the IESG comments on nsf-facing need
>>>>> resolving with the IESG first and then the agreed solution - I
>>>>> expect that most of the comments by the IESG will be accepted - can be
>>>>> incorporated into this I-D.
>>>>>
>>>>> Choice of protocols, reference for protocols, way of specifying
>>>>> ranges of numbers, indeed way of specifying at all, string
>>>>> language, volte,
>>>>> RFC793 redundant, all those comments by Alexey on lack of clarity,
>>>>> Rob's comments on identity descriptions, example labelling and so on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom Petch
>>>>>
>>>>>> This poll runs until March 10, 2022.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that
>>>>>> applies to
>>>>> this Document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance
>>>>> with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
>>>>>> If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this Document,
>>>>>> please
>>>>> respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of
>>>>> any relevant undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without
>>>>> answers from all the Authors and Contributors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please
>>>>> explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not
>>>>> yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> I2nsf mailing list
>>>>>> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
>>>>>> F
>>>>>> ww
>>>>>>
>>> w.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fi2nsf&data=04%7C01%7Clinda.dun
>>>>>>
>>> bar%40futurewei.com%7C0fd53b962cbb4208379608d9fc70f6f5%7C0fee8ff2a
>>> 3b
>>>>>>
>>> 240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637818384373805664%7CUnknown
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>>>>>>
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>>> eHk%3
>>>>>> D&reserved=0
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> I2nsf mailing list
>>>>> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>
>>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww
>>> w
>>>>>
>>> .ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fi2nsf&data=04%7C01%7Clinda.dunb
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>>> D&
>>>>> reserved=0
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> I2nsf mailing list
>>> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
>>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww
>>> w
>>> .ie%2F&data=04%7C01%7Clinda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7Ca57aa6f58f8
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>>> qtXjkTrjDeHk%3D&reserved=0
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> I2nsf mailing list
>>> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
>>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww
>>> w
>>> .ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fi2nsf&data=04%7C01%7Clinda.dunb
>>> a
>>> r%40futurewei.com%7Ca57aa6f58f8f44e9ff0908da0b2a5814%7C0fee8ff2a3b24
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>>> 3
>>> D&reserved=0
>> .
>>
> .
>
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