On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 17:12, David Van Assche<dvanass...@gmail.com> wrote: > Ok, I think what's happening here is a breakdown in communication. When I > used the term obvious, I was talking about Christoph's email... I was > stating that perhaps the message, as I understood it, was that we need more > data from the field... and that _the message_ was not obvious enough in the > email. I never meant that the feedback was not obvious enough... or that > developers were not doing enough to keep us informed.
Ok, I'm sorry about that. The thread was about feedback from GPA not being relevant for the 99.99% of Sugar users, in case that helps explain my reply. > I really hope this makes sense. I'm a little concerned that I have to be so > careful about wording. I sort of get the feeling that should one make any > type of constructive criticism, this is immediately construed as a threat, > and the person writing the criticism is forced to walk on egg shells. > > I understand that talking about what can be done better, or what should have > been done that wasnt, etc causes very emotional responses because of the > time people have given to the project, but should we really just shut up > about this stuff? Or is there value to hearing people's opinions on how > things could be improved? I think you are right in that criticism is very important and I didn't welcomed it properly, hope to improve on this. > And on that note, I'd like to hear how I can improve gathering feedback for > our Autonomous region, based on methods currently in place elsewhere. What > I'm asking for is links to documentation that show how this has been done > till now in South America, Nepal and Asia, Africa, Europe. I've looked > around, but there is not too much information on the web. My idea is to try > and automate this as much as possible by creating a set of scripts, or > plugins that can measure stats and then send these (probably via xmpp) > > Someone mentioned munin, but this doesn't really give user statistics much > though... its more of a network tool for servers for measuring performance, > resource usage, and graphing these. What I am talking about is digitising > the current manual feedback that is happening elsewhere (how many users > running which apps, lesson plans being used, languages, how many computers > requiring repairs, general problems people are running into, and generally > people's feelings on sugar usage, maybe even surveys) I would start by listing the kind of parameters for which we could use quantitative data, then think about how we could gather it. I remember an interesting thread in olpc-sur about assessment of the plan ceibal, may be interesting to ask there for opinions. Regards, Tomeu > kind regards, > David Van Assche > > On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Tomeu Vizoso <to...@sugarlabs.org> wrote: >> >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 20:17, David Van Assche<dvanass...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying... all I said was "we >> > need >> > more data from the field" >> >> Well, I also understood that you said that it wasn't obvious enough. >> Which surprised me after all the noise lately about getting feedback. >> >> Anyway, I'm seeing feedback coming right now and also efforts to >> organize feedback gathering. So, let's do it! >> >> Regards, >> >> Tomeu >> >> > I am in no way blaming anyone for not getting feedback, on the contrary, >> > I >> > am frustrated that the calls for feediback are not being heard enoguh, >> > and I >> > am well aware of people's efforts to try and get this feedback. What I >> > am >> > saying is that the feedback is not coming through.... does this make >> > sense? >> > Or are you saying the feedback is getting through and I'm just not >> > seeing >> > it? >> > >> > regards, >> > David >> > >> > On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Tomeu Vizoso <to...@sugarlabs.org> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 15:51, David Van Assche<dvanass...@gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> > Hmmmm... I have to agree with Christoph here. I didn't really see it >> >> > as >> >> > being dramatic at all, but quite factual in fact. The western small >> >> > deployments really don't give us any useful stats on what is >> >> > happening >> >> > on a >> >> > larger scale in the third world. >> >> >> >> Ok, but will give some other interesting information, or not at all? >> >> >> >> > And its important to acknowledge the >> >> > differences between these, which Christoph listed quite concretely. >> >> >> >> And isn't this stating the obvious? >> >> >> >> > I think >> >> > what may not have come across obviously enough was that we need way >> >> > more >> >> > data from the field, in places where Sugar is being used on a large >> >> > scale, >> >> > and this data is just not getting to us. I for one, would love to >> >> > have >> >> > some >> >> > cold hard facts about Sugar as used in South America and Africa. >> >> >> >> I'm quite appalled by this, you don't read the mailing lists where we >> >> make regular calls for feedback? Short from taking a plane and >> >> visiting school by school, I don't see what else I can do to get that >> >> feedback. >> >> >> >> You understand Spanish, search the olpc-sur mailing list for posts by >> >> Walter and me and tell here again if we don't ask for feedback. >> >> >> >> It's really frustrating that we are here spending our savings and time >> >> on this project, and not only the people deploying our software don't >> >> want to talk to us despite our requests, but other people still think >> >> we don't want to know about them. >> >> >> >> Frustratedly yours, >> >> >> >> Tomeu >> >> >> >> > kind Regards, >> >> > David Van Assche >> >> > >> >> > On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 2:21 PM, David Farning >> >> > <dfarn...@sugarlabs.org> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 5:42 AM, Christoph >> >> >> Derndorfer<e0425...@student.tuwien.ac.at> wrote: >> >> >> > Sean DALY schrieb: >> >> >> >> IMHO, close study of small deployments makes them incredibly >> >> >> >> useful >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> all teachers and Learners. The observations and take-aways need >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> be >> >> >> >> triaged of course, starting with what can/should be done by Sugar >> >> >> >> Labs, but I am convinced many learnings will benefit large >> >> >> >> deployments. Until reliable means of sharing experiences and >> >> >> >> feedback >> >> >> >> (polls, questionnaires, council of deployers, etc.) can be put in >> >> >> >> place, microscopic study of a classroom using Sugar is well worth >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> effort, in particular for revealing blockers. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > I'm not sure I really agree with this statement... >> >> >> >> >> >> Christoph please keep the dramatic headlines to olpcnews. >> >> >> >> >> >> In the above paragraph, Walter notes that many lessons can be >> >> >> learned >> >> >> from controlled environments which can then be applied to larger >> >> >> scaled, less controlled environments. >> >> >> >> >> >> Please note, this does not _exclude_ anyone from providing feedback >> >> >> from large scale deployments. Nor does it _prevent_ anyone from >> >> >> creating small scale deployments anywhere in the world. _all_ it >> >> >> states is that it is often cost effective to start small and grow as >> >> >> lessons have been learned. >> >> >> >> >> >> And yes, Christoph I _am_ holding your writing to a higher standard. >> >> >> Several times, you have described yourself as the voice of the >> >> >> project. >> >> >> >> >> >> david >> >> >> >> >> >> > Extrapolating the data and drawing conclusions based on >> >> >> > observations >> >> >> > in >> >> >> > a trial that represents less than 0,01% of all current Sugar >> >> >> > installations is a risky endeavor at best and a serious mistake at >> >> >> > worst. Even more so when the environment between the trial (in >> >> >> > this >> >> >> > case >> >> >> > GPA) and the global deployments really couldn't be more different >> >> >> > in >> >> >> > just about every way imaginable (SoaS vs. XO, summer classes vs. >> >> >> > regular >> >> >> > year-long classes, Boston connectivity vs. Rwanda connectivity, 25 >> >> >> > installations in a school vs. 1000 installations in a school, US >> >> >> > power >> >> >> > infrastructure vs. Nepali power infrastructure, having a team >> >> >> > consisting >> >> >> > of Walter / Greg / Caroline supporting the efforts vs. being lucky >> >> >> > to >> >> >> > maybe have a single person who has used a computer before, 25 >> >> >> > pupils >> >> >> > in >> >> >> > a classroom vs. 80 pupils in a classroom, users that were raised >> >> >> > in >> >> >> > urban North America vs. users who don't have electricity at home, >> >> >> > and >> >> >> > I >> >> >> > could go on...). >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Yes, some of the findings at GPA will indeed be of a broad and >> >> >> > general >> >> >> > nature and subsequent actions will benefit all Sugar users. Yes, >> >> >> > projects like in Alabama, Austria, the UK and similar places will >> >> >> > be >> >> >> > able to learn many things from the GPA pilot. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > But let's not forget that the current million Sugar users and (if >> >> >> > the >> >> >> > reports are to be believed) also the next million Sugar users are >> >> >> > much >> >> >> > more likely to be found in Ancash, Kigali or Sichuan rather than >> >> >> > Boston, >> >> >> > London or Vienna. And I doubt that you'll find too many schools in >> >> >> > those >> >> >> > places that have a profile similar to GPA [1]. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Just my 2 Nepali Rupees, >> >> >> > Christoph >> >> >> > >> >> >> > [1] "The Gardner Pilot Academy is the flagship full-service >> >> >> > community >> >> >> > school within the Boston Public Schools (BPS). The school's vision >> >> >> > is >> >> >> > to >> >> >> > educate the minds and develop the characters of all students in >> >> >> > partnership with families and community. To achieve this GPA >> >> >> > provides >> >> >> > high quality teaching along with a range of social, emotional and >> >> >> > enrichment programs delivered by means of partnerships with an >> >> >> > array >> >> >> > of >> >> >> > community organizations and individuals. Over the past twelve >> >> >> > years, >> >> >> > GPA >> >> >> > has developed strong associations with four universities, several >> >> >> > health >> >> >> > and mental health agencies, the YMCA, and various organizations >> >> >> > teaching >> >> >> > visual and performing arts. As one of just 20 pilot schools in the >> >> >> > BPS, >> >> >> > GPA is exempt from district mandates. Therefore, GPA has autonomy >> >> >> > in >> >> >> > the >> >> >> > areas of budget and personnel, along with the freedom to implement >> >> >> > innovative curricula, assessments, and interventions." >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > (http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Gardner_Pilot_Academy#Gardner_Pilot_Academy) >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -- >> >> >> > Christoph Derndorfer >> >> >> > co-editor, olpcnews >> >> >> > url: www.olpcnews.com >> >> >> > e-mail: christ...@olpcnews.com >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >> >> >> > IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org >> >> >> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >> >> >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >> >> >> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org >> >> >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > >> >> > Stephen Leacock - "I detest life-insurance agents: they always argue >> >> > that I >> >> > shall some day die, which is not so." >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >> >> > IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org >> >> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > Mike Ditka - "If God had wanted man to play soccer, he wouldn't have >> > given >> > us arms." >> >> >> >> -- >> «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar. >> What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David >> Farning > > > > -- > > Samuel Goldwyn - "I'm willing to admit that I may not always be right, but > I am never wrong." -- «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar. What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David Farning _______________________________________________ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep