1. I believe Carlos raises valid points 2. We need specifics so we can prioritize and address them, So: 1. Let's stop talking in generalities and about volunteer vs corporate, we are what we are, so let's make the best of it 2. We should work with Carlos (who I find generally very helpful and supportive and I firmly believe has a heart to help and that is why he made the criticisms) to get a list of specific issues, so we can identify and prioritize solutions.
Stephen On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Chris Leonard <cjlhomeaddr...@gmail.com>wrote: > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 4:29 PM, Kenneth Wyrick <k...@caltek.net> wrote: > > Chris, > > > > Since this seems to be something you have sincere passion about, would > you > > be willing to simply list/summarize specific points that you see that > > Carlos made so we can talk about them point by point to hopefully arrive > > at a more succinct overall intention of his communication? > > > Kenneth, > > I do have a passion for Sugar / OLPC and perhaps that is why I > identify with the passion that I see in Carlos' message. I would > reprise my comment that the discussion is best carried out *with* > Carlos and in Spanish on the lists he posted his message, but I will > give it a shot. However, I will say that I cannot really speak to > Carlos concerns, that conversation should happen with Carlos. I > intersperse my comments with his paragraphs below (prepending mine > with "cjl"). > > Quoting from the English translation at > > https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1yBr2G7FF5Jr46ixt_THm1xQh08cyNJXx8KUy-WDZ1Xs > > First let's acknowledge this as a potentially misleading starting > point as tone can easily be mangled by Google Translate. > > "I work since 1983, using computers as an important tool to earn a > living. While working, I had to learn DOS, Windows and Macintosh. I > also learned Open Office, Google Docs and Etoys after retiring from > work." > > cjl - It is clear to me from this that Carlos has a lifetime of > expectations formed by the systems that he grew up using. It is a > psychological phenomena that "violation of expectations" leads to > strong reactions. I've worked as programmer on and off since the late > '70's. Yes, I've booted computers from cassette tape, been paid to > program on IBM punch cards, have used Wang 8 inch floppies and know > what a read-write ring looks like and does. I know where he is coming > from. > > "I just cannot learn Sugar. I ask for help when I find problems I > cannot resolve but I don´t seem to get answers that make any sense." > > cjl - In this I read frustration at the comnunications channels, > I can sympathize with this sentiment and imagine it must be amplified > for a native Spanish speaker. In my opinion this is the crux of the > message that deserves further exploration of the exact issues and > engagement with a positive tone to seek improvements and where > possible remedies for the problems that plague Carlos and other users. > This is the feedback we've been asking for, it is up to us to take > him seriously (as he should be) and draw him out on the details. > Sorry, it isn't filed in a bug-tracker with a patch, it will require a > conversation. > > "From what I hear at meetings, both in Uruguay and overseas, and from > what I read in lists, I can assure I am not the only one having this > problem." > > cjl - No question he is right about this. In fact the lack of > feedback from deployments is often bemoaned on the IAEP list. It is > just a little amusing and slightly sad that when such feedback comes > (however poorly framed), the first response is to reject it, > > "I beg you excuse my ignorance. If some ignorant like me doesn´t > speak clearly, we will continue to waste our time for ever as well as > waste the precious time of children and adolescents and trying to > convince teachers they don´t know how to teach." > > "If you are ashamed of confessing you don´t know, continuing in > ignorance is more of a shame." > > cjl - Here Carlos admits his own shortcomings (we all have them) > and asks for enlightnement. This to me is a sign of intelligence, > admitting one's own limitations. > > "I said I learned to work with quite diverse computers and operating > systems and I just cannot get to learn Sugar. Let´s try to find then, > what does Sugar have different from DOS, Windows, Macintosh, Open > Office, Google Docs and Etoys." > > cjl - see earlier comment about "violation of expectations". > > "A characteristic common to all the systems I was able to learn and > use with positive results is they work well. They work well for > common people like myself and for most people who need to know the > basicas to be able to work, adapting those programs to the specific > problems of our jobs or further study. That basic training, enables > us to face the challenges the real world presents to all who work > and/or study." > > cjl - Here, I suspect that Carlos is confusing the Sugar Learning > environment with the workplace tools he is familiar with. This is > understandable, this confusion with the goals of Sugar exists widely > and can be hard to overcome. Apparently OLPC has lost deployment > opportunities because an XO cannot be used to provide vocational > training in Microsoft Office. Int4erestingly, even the smallest steps > to allow Windows to run on an XO by tweaking the open firmware > produced vehement reactions within the community. > > cjl - To paraphrase the Haggadah (the Jewish service for the > Passover meal) it is incumbent on us to ask and answer the question: > "Why is this OS different from all other OSes?" > > "In a few words, my opinion is Sugar does not work. Those who think > otherwise, should just follow the messages in the mail lists, > preferrably those in Spanish, the language of Uruguay and several > other countries, or become a volunteer and live with the problems." > > cjl - A not unjustified call for listening closely to the > feedback that is given (mostly in Spanish) and to live with real-world > deployment issues. Again I see this as a clarion call for more > engagement. > > "Why doesn´t it work?" > > "I will offer my best ignorant´s opinion. Anyone with an answer > closer to the truth, please explain it to us so we continue living in > armony and progressing for everybody´s benefit." > > "I will explain, using an imaginary example, my opinion on why Sugar > doesn´t even get close to the reliability and usefullness level of the > other systems we mentioned." > > cjl - I have to give him some points on the reliability concern, > I would have to ask the question of "usefulness" by asking "usefulness > for what purpose", back to the learning tool versus workplace tool > issue. > > "Let´s think of Apple, currently the most successful company in the > business, at world level. It acquired its good reputation offering > devices that work well since we open the box and programs that most of > us can learn how to use with good results within a short time." > > cjl - Regardless of your feelings about Apple, this is not an > inaccurate description of some elements that have contributed to their > success. Let's please accept that responding to this by getting into > discussions about Apple would be a distraction, so let's avoid doing > that. > > "Let´s imagine now that Apple directors decide to save money by firing > all the great programmers they employ, dedicated to write their > operating systems. Let´s imagine they decide that a group of > volunteers, worldwide, with a horizontal organization without chiefs, > is the latest model in modern business management. What would > happen? How much longer would Apple survive? Days? Hours? > > I am neither complaining, nor criticizing the past or the present." > > cjl - Well, this is a bit of rehashing OLPC's decision-making > around supporting Sugar that lead to the spin out of Sugar Labs back > in May 2008. I really, really don't want to re-litigate that, it is > water long under the bridge. Those of us who were around at that time > remember it as a time of high passions and recriminations, some were > even moved to express themselves in outrageous forms > (http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Cjl/Random_musings) just to > exorcise those demons and move forward with the important work at > hand. > > "Thanks to Sugar and to many other organizations and persons, Plan > Ceibal started, it accomplished tremendous progress and it is where > it is today. Let´s congratulate all those who helped bring it to this > point, from those who made the big decisions, to OLPC and each and > all teachers, students, relatives and volunteers." > > cjl - An acknowledgement that OLPC and Sugar have changed the > nature of the discourse around ICT and learning. > > "Wouldn´t this be the time to recognize Sugar is what is currently > preventing us to move ahead, and to dedicate all our tremendous > collective intelligence and energy to continue moving ahead? Anyone > may trip on a roadblock. We have to get up and continue on our way. > We cannot let a program that has problems stop everything." > > cjl - Sounds like a call to "throw the baby out with the > bathwater", I can't say I agree with this conclusion, but Carlos is > certainly not the first to make this point. This is an opportunity to > engage Carlos in a discussion about the core principles behind Sugar > and to examine our own efforts to see how we may be falling short of > achieving those principles. > > "I am happy to see Plan Ceibal is not sleeping and every day is > introducing or considering very interesting ideas. I see Portal > Ceibal shows information on Khan Academy and Sugata Mitra, among > other education ideas that are calling the attention of many people > around the world today." > > cjl - Here Carlos is suggesting that Sugar and an XO laptop alone > are not the solution to all problems, a conclusion I heartily agree > with. It fails to acknowledge what Sugar and XOs make possible, but I > will not quibble there, I will join him in celebrating the ingenuity > of local deployments and even children in appropriating the tools they > have adopted and reworking them to meet their own needs and desires. > At this point I am tempted to shout "Hallelujah" or less aptly > "Mission Accomplished". The appropriation of the tools and technology > by local communities is the end-game we all seek (I think). > > cjl - What this leaves out is the sincere desire of Sugar Labs to > gather that creative energy back from the deployments and share it > with other deployments around the world. Let's be honest in admitting > we just don't do this well enough (yet). I myself would like to see > OLE Nepal's materials translated into English and hosted on Pootle for > anyone to localize into their language of choice (just as an example). > This returns us to the need for deeper and more meaningful engagement > to harvest both the good and the bad from deployments. > > cjl - Kenneth, that is how I read Carlos's message. It may not > be what he really meant to say and he may not like how I characterize > some of his points, but this is just my opinion, which you *did* ask > for, You just didn't realize that I would actually give it to you :-) > > cjl > _______________________________________________ > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) > IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >
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