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Today's Topics:
1. [SoaS] SoaS frustrations & call for proposals (Frederick Grose)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 13:17:49 -0500
From: Frederick Grose <fgr...@gmail.com>
To: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org, s...@lists.sugarlabs.org
Subject: [IAEP] [SoaS] SoaS frustrations & call for proposals
Message-ID:
<CAEcBt+UuPHfGcO=cp2aru69nts17cq4rjlxv9jbojt638qx...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Tony Anderson <tony_ander...@usa.net>
wrote:
Consider an potential adopter who wants to try out Sugar. As Caryl knows
from Scale, an adopter wants to know:
1 - What are the capabilities of Sugar, what are its strengths, who is
using it, are there success stories, testimonials from users?
2 - How is it supported? If I were to deploy it and needed help, is it
available?
3 - How can I install it on my PC to try it out?
Going to the Sugarlabs website, the first screen features: Activities,
Wiki, Social Help. The next statement describes Sugar as a collection of
tools.
Being persistent, if you scroll down several screens, you get to a block:
Get Sugar featuring SOAS and Gnu/Linux.
For Sugar on a Stick, I am directed to another page. It starts out well -
how to make a stick with Windows (but 7). The instructions say to download
650MB and burn a CD. At this point the instructions become incoherent. They
say to mount a 2GB or more stick and then boot from the CD and start
running Sugar from it using the Terminal activity and su.
Then I am told that a change in Fedora 24 (the adopter is saying 'what's
that?') requires the use of the command:
sudo dnf install livecd-tools
No potential adopter would persist even to this point.
The other panel claims Sugar is available on most Gnu/Linux distributions.
The accompanying instructions from the links on this panel are even more
intimidating and provide evidence of lack of support for Sugar.
In fact, I believe that Ubuntu 16.04 enables yum install of Sugar 0.110.
This should be featured.
Like Pixel, I would like to see a current Sugar image available for
download which can be transfered to a usb stick by a single dd command.
This stick would operate as SOAS but also support installation in an
available block of hard drive on any amd_64 machine. A second image ideally
would be installable as a Window application with a supported Windows
installer (like wubi did). Finally, there should be a Debian image which
can be copied to an SD card and booted by a Raspberry Pi 3 (and possibly
2).
Finally, our hypothetical adopter should find this 'get Sugar' information
on the main screen, not down six screens.
Tony
On 02/15/2017 11:20 PM, iaep-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org wrote:
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 21:15:05 +0000
From: Caryl Bigenho <cbige...@hotmail.com> <cbige...@hotmail.com>
To: Bert Freudenberg <b...@freudenbergs.de> <b...@freudenbergs.de>
Cc: IAEP SugarLabs <iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org> <iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org>
Subject: Re: [IAEP] pixel
Message-ID:
<cy4pr19mb1061668d2fc5eef8cbbcd2cdcc...@cy4pr19mb1061.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
<cy4pr19mb1061668d2fc5eef8cbbcd2cdcc...@cy4pr19mb1061.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
+1 for Tony's comment!
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 15, 2017, at 12:51 PM, Bert Freudenberg
<b...@freudenbergs.de<mailto:b...@freudenbergs.de> <b...@freudenbergs.de>>
wrote:
On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:35 AM, Tony Anderson
<tony_ander...@usa.net<mailto:tony_ander...@usa.net> <tony_ander...@usa.net>>
wrote:
This is what I hoped Sugarlabs would do:
https://opensource.com/article/17/1/try- IAEP Digest, Vol 107, Issue
15raspberry-pis-pixel-os-your-pc
<https://opensource.com/article/17/1/try-raspberry-pis-pixel-os-your-pc>
Tony
Isn't that exactly what SoaS does?
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Installation
- Bert -
_______________________________________________
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
This discussion started with Tony's reference to PIXEL
<https://opensource.com/article/17/1/try-raspberry-pis-pixel-os-your-pc>,
a live
CD <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_CD> of the Raspberry Pi OS. That led
to a reference to Sugar on a Stick
<https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick> and a discussion of its
ease of installation. From there the discussion got split as I addressed
some technical issues on the SoaS mailing list, followed by Caryl giving
some insights on the suitability of SoaS in comparison to Sugarizer
<http://sugarizer.org/>. Peter responded with more information on the
breadth of technology currently served by SoaS
<https://spins.fedoraproject.org/en/soas/>, the Fedora-Sugar Labs spin of
Sugar.
So I've brought both threads together here by cross posting a transcript.
Praise be, Sugarizer has made great steps toward Sugar Labs' technical
goals <https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs#Technical_Goals> and
deserves much greater investment as Caryl suggests.
Yet there remains considerable value in the SoaS variants of Sugar, so
attention is still deserved there to support the needs of another class of
users and learners.
To that end, I notice that the Fedora 26 proposal submission deadline is
fast approaching (21 Feb 2017) and so offer this thread and this feature
page <https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/SoaS_next> for proposals.
Thanks be given for your insights and efforts!
Forwarded conversation
Subject: Fwd: [IAEP] SoaS installation frustrations
------------------------
From: Frederick Grose <fgr...@sugarlabs.org>
Date: Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:23 AM
To: s...@lists.sugarlabs.org
Cc: Peter Robinson <pbrobin...@gmail.com>, tony_ander...@usa.net
See the posting below with inline suggestions. The posting was to the IAEP
mailing list for the general Sugar audience. I've copied the discussion
here to the SoaS list for technical followup. Perhaps we could interest
some Google Code-In or GSOC applicants to innovate on the installation
issues.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Tony Anderson <tony_ander...@usa.net>
Date: Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 12:18 AM
Subject: Re: [IAEP] IAEP Digest, Vol 107, Issue 15
To: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org
Consider an potential adopter who wants to try out Sugar. As Caryl knows
from Scale, an adopter wants to know:
1 - What are the capabilities of Sugar, what are its strengths, who is
using it, are there success stories, testimonials from users?
2 - How is it supported? If I were to deploy it and needed help, is it
available?
3 - How can I install it on my PC to try it out?
Going to the Sugarlabs website, the first screen features: Activities,
Wiki, Social Help. The next statement describes Sugar as a collection of
tools.
Being persistent, if you scroll down several screens, you get to a block:
Get Sugar featuring SOAS and Gnu/Linux.
For Sugar on a Stick, I am directed to another page. It starts out well -
how to make a stick with Windows (but 7). The instructions say to download
650MB and burn a CD. At this point the instructions become incoherent. They
say to mount a 2GB or more stick and then boot from the CD and start
running Sugar from it using the Terminal activity and su.
Then I am told that a change in Fedora 24 (the adopter is saying 'what's
that?') requires the use of the command:
sudo dnf install livecd-tools
No potential adopter would persist even to this point.
>> We should go back to including the livecd-tools package in SoaS and we
should also copy the livecd-iso-to-disk script to the /LiveOS/ folder as
was previously standard in Fedora, because installing SoaS with persistent
storage is essential for the project goal of having a resumable Sugar
environment in your pocket.
This is something Peter Robinson, our SoaS packager, can accomplish or
advise us on.
The other panel claims Sugar is available on most Gnu/Linux distributions.
The accompanying instructions from the links on this panel are even more
intimidating and provide evidence of lack of support for Sugar.
In fact, I believe that Ubuntu 16.04 enables yum install of Sugar 0.110.
This should be featured.
Like Pixel, I would like to see a current Sugar image available for
download which can be transferred to a usb stick by a single dd command.
This stick would operate as SOAS but also support installation in an
available block of hard drive on any amd_64 machine.
>> This is currently available, but not featured in our instructions as
such an installation lacks persistence of user/learner Activities between
boots. However, it is the easiest way to demonstrate a live SoaS system.
Instructions should be updated.
A second image ideally would be installable as a Window application with a
supported Windows installer (like wubi did). Finally, there should be a
Debian image which can be copied to an SD card and booted by a Raspberry Pi
3 (and possibly 2).
Finally, our hypothetical adopter should find this 'get Sugar' information
on the main screen, not down six screens.
Tony
On 02/15/2017 11:20 PM, iaep-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org wrote:
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 21:15:05 +0000
From: Caryl Bigenho <cbige...@hotmail.com> <cbige...@hotmail.com>
To: Bert Freudenberg <b...@freudenbergs.de> <b...@freudenbergs.de>
Cc: IAEP SugarLabs <iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org> <iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org>
Subject: Re: [IAEP] pixel
Message-ID:
<cy4pr19mb1061668d2fc5eef8cbbcd2cdcc...@cy4pr19mb1061.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
<cy4pr19mb1061668d2fc5eef8cbbcd2cdcc...@cy4pr19mb1061.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
+1 for Tony's comment!
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 15, 2017, at 12:51 PM, Bert Freudenberg
<b...@freudenbergs.de<mailto:b...@freudenbergs.de>
<b...@freudenbergs.de>> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:35 AM, Tony Anderson
<tony_ander...@usa.net<mailto:tony_ander...@usa.net>
<tony_ander...@usa.net>> wrote:
This is what I hoped Sugarlabs would do:
https://opensource.com/article/17/1/try-raspberry-pis-pixel-os-your-pc
Tony
Isn't that exactly what SoaS does?
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Installation
- Bert -
______________________________________________
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
For those interested alleviating these frustrations, the following links to
previous efforts provide some background:
https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Resources
<http://goog_127419843/>
https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Goals
https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/TODO
--Fred
----------
From: Caryl Bigenho <cbige...@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 12:30 PM
To: "s...@lists.sugarlabs.org" <s...@lists.sugarlabs.org>
Cc: "tony_ander...@usa.net" <tony_ander...@usa.net>
Hi Guys...
I'm sorry to stick a pin in your balloon, but I really think it is time to
(gasp) retire SOAS! If your target market is education, it is still far too
complex for most educators to want to even try to install it, much less
write lesson plans that will utilize Sugar's Activities to help their
students learn. As Tony knows, teachers simply don't have the time to learn
about things like Terminal commands, what Gnu and Linux are etc.
Unfortunately this is why Apple has such a grip on technology in schools...
in the words of Steve Jobs (I think he was the one who said it) "It just
works!"
That is why I think our focus should shift to Sugarizer. It just works!
Teachers, students, parents , and everyone else knows how to install an app
on their device and Sugarizer is available to install on almost any device.
What it needs now to make it a viable option for schools and other
educational projects is some great documentation with lesson suggestions
for the various Activities that are relevant to the work the students are
doing... learning language arts by reading and writing, learning math by
doing math, music by making music etc.
This is one reason why I made a proposal last summer (that no one picked up
on) that we begin with a special small edition, Sugarizer Primero or
Sugarizer1° (1° is primero). It would have just those Activities that would
be useful in the K-2 (Primary School). This small version would not include
any war games so it could be used more universally.
We could find some willing educators to test it and help develop lesson
plan suggestions. These teachers should be paid for their work (from
SugarLabs funds). We would need someone very familiar with using Sugar with
students and with access to a lot of teachers and classes to test it. It
seems that the perfect person for this would be Rosamel Norma Ramirez in
Uruguay.
So... as I said... sorry! But it is time to realistic about this and move
on.
Caryl
P.S. For Tony... are you in the US? Are you coming to SCaLE March 3-5?
------------------------------
*From:* SoaS <soas-boun...@lists.sugarlabs.org> on behalf of Frederick
Grose <fgr...@sugarlabs.org>
*Sent:* Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:23:31 AM
*To:* s...@lists.sugarlabs.org
*Cc:* tony_ander...@usa.net
*Subject:* [SoaS] Fwd: [IAEP] SoaS installation frustrations
_______________________________________________
SoaS mailing list
s...@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas
----------
From: Peter Robinson <pbrobin...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 12:41 PM
To: Frederick Grose <fgr...@sugarlabs.org>
Cc: Development of live Sugar distributions <s...@lists.sugarlabs.org>,
tony_ander...@usa.net
On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 2:23 PM, Frederick Grose <fgr...@sugarlabs.org>
wrote:
See the posting below with inline suggestions. The posting was to the
IAEP
mailing list for the general Sugar audience. I've copied the discussion
here to the SoaS list for technical followup. Perhaps we could interest
some Google Code-In or GSOC applicants to innovate on the installation
issues.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Tony Anderson <tony_ander...@usa.net>
Date: Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 12:18 AM
Subject: Re: [IAEP] IAEP Digest, Vol 107, Issue 15
To: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org
Consider an potential adopter who wants to try out Sugar. As Caryl knows
from Scale, an adopter wants to know:
1 - What are the capabilities of Sugar, what are its strengths, who is
using
it, are there success stories, testimonials from users?
2 - How is it supported? If I were to deploy it and needed help, is it
available?
3 - How can I install it on my PC to try it out?
Going to the Sugarlabs website, the first screen features: Activities,
Wiki,
Social Help. The next statement describes Sugar as a collection of tools.
Being persistent, if you scroll down several screens, you get to a block:
Get Sugar featuring SOAS and Gnu/Linux.
The SoaS site it much better:
https://spins.fedoraproject.org/soas/
For Sugar on a Stick, I am directed to another page. It starts out well -
how to make a stick with Windows (but 7). The instructions say to download
650MB and burn a CD. At this point the instructions become incoherent.
They
say to mount a 2GB or more stick and then boot from the CD and start
running
Sugar from it using the Terminal activity and su.
Fedora has a Windows/MacOS/Linux graphical tool to write USB sticks
and that is what should be used IMO.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_create_and_use_Live_USB
Then I am told that a change in Fedora 24 (the adopter is saying 'what's
that?') requires the use of the command:
sudo dnf install livecd-tools
No potential adopter would persist even to this point.
We should go back to including the livecd-tools package in SoaS and we
should also copy the livecd-iso-to-disk script to the /LiveOS/ folder
as was
previously standard in Fedora, because installing SoaS with persistent
storage is essential for the project goal of having a resumable Sugar
environment in your pocket.
This is something Peter Robinson, our SoaS packager, can accomplish or
advise us on.
I need help if SoaS is to survive. I really don't have the time to maintain
it.
That said I think most of the instructions on the web site are garbage.
The other panel claims Sugar is available on most Gnu/Linux distributions.
The accompanying instructions from the links on this panel are even more
intimidating and provide evidence of lack of support for Sugar.
In fact, I believe that Ubuntu 16.04 enables yum install of Sugar 0.110.
This should be featured.
Why confuse users with a plethora of distributions? You go on about
making it easier and less confusing where all that does it adds to the
confusion.
Like Pixel, I would like to see a current Sugar image available for
download
which can be transferred to a usb stick by a single dd command. This stick
would operate as SOAS but also support installation in an available block
of
hard drive on any amd_64 machine.
This is currently available, but not featured in our instructions as
such
an installation lacks persistence of user/learner Activities between
boots.
However, it is the easiest way to demonstrate a live SoaS system.
Instructions should be updated.
A second image ideally would be installable as a Window application with a
supported Windows installer (like wubi did). Finally, there should be a
Debian image which can be copied to an SD card and booted by a Raspberry
Pi
3 (and possibly 2).
We product SoaS on Fedora for the Raspberry Pi 2 and 3 already (plus
around 200 other cheap ARM devices). Why do you need a Debian image
where you could use the Fedora SoaS and ensure a consistent experience
across all platforms.
Finally, our hypothetical adopter should find this 'get Sugar' information
on the main screen, not down six screens.
Get someone to actually write quality documentation for doing so.
_______________________________________________
SoaS mailing list
s...@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas
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Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
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------------------------------
End of IAEP Digest, Vol 107, Issue 29
*************************************
