Are you denying that IFL and REST on mainframes are old hat? If you're alluding to the cost of specialty issues as opposed to the cost of non-mainframe platforms, that wasn't an issue that the article raised.
-- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 ________________________________________ From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 20, 2022 7:42 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and AWS On 20/06/2022 7:10 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: > Whoosh! Is that the tick shaped thing that goes on the side of Nike sneekers? > There is no "traditional transaction processing"; transaction processing is > an open ended paradigm. CICS may have it's limitation, but the fact that it > has been around for half a century should be enough to demolish the belief > that mainframe=batch. > > The availability of, e.g., REST, on z/OS is not exactly breaking news. Speaking from experience? > The reference to IFL is because the author of the article seems to believe > that Linux and mainframe are mutually exclusive, despite the lengthy > availability of Linux on Z and the lengthy availability of specialty engines > to reduce the cost. Do you have experience with IFL's? > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > ________________________________________ > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 3:24 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and > AWS > > On 20/06/2022 2:53 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: >> Systems like CICS *are* real-time, straight-through, although they can >> certainly create data for later batch processing. The point is that for half >> a century "mainframe" has included a wealth of applications that were not >> batch, and that the point of transactional subsytems was to get away from >> batch. There may be many valid reasons for getting away from a mainframe, >> but the belief that you need to do so in order to get away from batch is >> insane > You're still missing the point. CICS is a transaction monitor. I'm > talking about real-time, continuous data feeds using middleware like > Kafka as the central nervous system. This is a new concept and very > different to traditional transaction processing + batch. Watch > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dx_rYEpRrdrA&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Ce98337b51b004e7d53be08da52b1fe07%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C637913221683415833%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=n6GiIoEvrP%2FRwRL5s%2FNEz2FoQtGzOxzcheJNRxn6QZQ%3D&reserved=0 > which is a microcosm of what > many mainframe sites are doing. Almost every bank that I know of who run > mainframes are doing something similar. > > >> Similarly, the desire to use new APIs that are already available on the >> mainframe does not explain the desire to leave. > What APIs are you referring to? > > >> -- >> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of >> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:02 PM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and >> AWS >> >> On 20/06/2022 12:38 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>> Keep in mind that the mainframe can only do batch processing, with input >>> from cards. It doesn't support anything like CICS, IMS or Sabre.. >> What have transactional systems like CICS or IMS got to do with >> real-time, straight-through processing? Most mainframe transactions >> store data that is later processed by batch, typically overnight. In the >> case of banking transactions that require inter-bank settlements this >> can cause delays of several days. In Australia the government mandated >> the NPP (New Payments Platform) which facilities instant payments using >> payids, which can be an email address, cellphone numbers etc. The API is >> a simple REST API using HTTP >> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1sBq5wh7NBIBtcLlnoe7mev6AZm4hzTAbw1IPjJa9kH6InoJ3U_Zwg7o9Mx_hc9VvcqSkO2GzjUCct8uA5cgnRrFTDuTMQtKKkcfMvJDb1lG83vYcBEiuvMNdKd-AF1d2oturWYl8cZaHKzA-Pdj-pyq3tHgfdJ5klsvrizH8LlkD_HYXieEshsP0famNedXtmoeOw5Urs-J_juVmfWlBLkL5DnxoSvjxKXs3irUVXLx3kIeGvCnSoZwaEeOhIw9o54Tm07SLXThtFfQSMhbhzK-GX34THADQG95_2Wf5Wm7VVHzxBSLvNCP4OVR5cUH1Blor-f81GcfMVs_XxpJ2-Z4_b4kClC7HDOWZLKqZGtSoXtnAaIXHkAeq2Pb3Q-S86UNOkXncePZm3DFQsAVpYKVN1zSAt5Hr9wo_ll03r2pE-zuCf5lLvXbyW6SSnZG_/https%3A%2F%2Fnppa.com.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F10%2FNPP-API-Framework-v4.0-Final.pdf. >> It's my understanding that no bank implemented NPP on the mainframe. >> From the presentations I've seen they used CDC to capture writes and >> then published events to Kafka, which was fanned out to different >> micro-services to do fraud detection, payments, push notifications etc. >> Back in the day straight-through processing was a pipe dream which is >> why we have overnight batch. It's a relic of applications written >> decades ago for very different hardware platforms. >> >> >>> It's much better to run Linux than to get an IFL, which can only run batch. >> I have no idea what you mean? >> >>> Cynical? Moi? >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >>> >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of >>> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2022 2:36 AM >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and >>> AWS >>> >>> On 19/06/2022 5:23 am, Enzo D'Amato wrote: >>>> I also agree, but as a non-insider, I wanted to know what others were >>>> thinking. I also belive that in most cases, the effort spent trying to get >>>> off the mainframe would be better spent actually fixing the code running >>>> on it in the first place. Moving around broken code doesn't automatically >>>> fix it. >>> It's not just about fixing broken code. If you read the ING CIO's >>> remarks about why they wanted off the mainframe it's not about the >>> platform. Nobody denies that mainframes are insanely brilliant hardware >>> platforms. ING wanted to get rid of batch and move towards an event >>> driven architecture using pub/sub where they can easily deploy loosely >>> coupled micro-services to provide cutting edge products. The technology >>> stacks are built on open source such as Kafka, MongoDB, Cassandra, NiFi, >>> Avro etc. The retail banking industry has been disrupted by fintechs so >>> waiting for an overnight batch schedule for settlements is a competitive >>> disadvantage. Cracking open and modernizing 50-60 year old COBOL batch >>> applications is a VERY heavy lift. >>> >>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GoiNO6FBPSWW0D9FZYVYixer1jsPeSd_xH-wmi6jMOC-onAkZQ4Pkf3c1UMGWbQeEprnkSWa1xGxz4vvn-LF0jVrCFlVVFZKQJ4Jti8nbQ7QchsOxhwNiwluJrdKkQP2nXXHQH2Ut2NNa9VChfVBIDR7Akw4ud6_pIXLAFXO5l73Sv-iLZFNU1MWWnLapWhhCKvytdzs7EJTvNZ2qbU8xwCdBEl1UkUuL-jHHZLk6xJPxAadVRWP1nuLz8i5AZrfvDI8u8rZ0V0DT77_Uvu8klHLbL9xe2qaYi1P6a6mc8r9Aj2jothGC-CR9cbCgb-JVXupgin9UctH5C_iVMyn_T-9jzZjtNyZDETxb8hXMU-BOuUz89MGu1nniZJ2tvSSN8yh5A6K-_It8fA10UFCfSBhOB0NVkwKL5M8A2BxZ9_e111GnxGK_PAbj0wh5fvU/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.com%2F2016%2F07%2F01%2Fing_mainframe_strategy%2F >>> <- read >>> the comments section. It's hilarious :) >>> >>> The doubly whammy is there's a skills crisis slowly unraveling. In the >>> last year we've had 3 key resources move to 3 day weeks with a view to >>> retiring. Replacing highly skilled assembler programmers with deep >>> subsystem knowledge is proving to be difficult. Young people don't want >>> to learn HLASM as they consider it a dead-end. Their position is "why >>> invest 3-4 years learning a language that is useless if you move to >>> another industry?" I can't comment about COBOL application developers. >>> >>> In 10 years time I expect the mainframe to be alive and kicking and >>> significantly modernized. The small/medium shops will probably be all >>> gone. When I first moved to my current town in 1998 there were 25-30 >>> mainframe sites. Now there are 3 and 1 is on life support. One of our >>> customers re-platformed their CICS/COBOL/Batch applications from a z9 to >>> a single blade server. It doesn't make any sense financially for a small >>> site to run a mainframe. >>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1-2iTgedz9DPApFopeywjfCeLAkb4kS8D5gFCEDU1FxvGiDWA4ou6pqJyb1d_hBAvGUBtcA89RrAylX3opaG2YEyDaGkIhptpRdukdHvdGOJNKn5bruFlKlnigitV6PrV4n-6zInQkhkJJdSriM40VeYiNOpB8Pg3nTa5E6k6TTIOXSfdaiQOGk1Y6EXL4Xtu-wkeXJmwaPEZljVo3KuwR0K75lrsX8fDe2f2CjcjvfrM3ruLG4na4zrAU_pR4DViMh7bKBhJ35a94VHU7GR4Vh_mXKaYwtbhwnRJWR8gVkvYjmB2CjTOIxJE52bNN1-82_fpYopX-kZQntDkR4OKjvj-b1AV9yXlGQ3A-eGFbtuCb0_1t2R9tgZ5MqgMbzxGQKIf78I2U_xq8a9qYywx3_OgfQwbeMgd8fiatdC5CbUSlphDlQfSDw9sOErejC7z/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.itnews.com.au%2Fnews%2Fwa-insurance-commission-decommissions-mainframe-322780 >>> >>>> Get BlueMail for >>>> Android<https://secure-web.cisco.com/1bcgENTOsK8XbQ24q-R3ISXJI_yYDqxq2wHDg7brpU3Np08gk-JU47Zv8dYAGOAWnxVTv-NWRXAx9s4JTmUJU07wHFT67zaiAPG32upxzSYnSiKIM6O3YI79ZGti7V-QdCWRtiBxOjLh3oMxNvzCcJgTTW-HQmmeQii1zDdP-GC1Rs0umn7xhevV0-PazdAun8gOm5P8Ld_gCw2UojSyXNKZKfmsqJPnt96XgISsJy9-_K81O2L5O-GDW2nxM7_C00lPjk0sF0iNqPQKNZAhVr0kk4TCoT4ePDBbBBUCUw6KfhxpkkhmUuo549OfnVRHweKCGYhEm5WE9nw-5khsn01oqKJxbv_y6P4BrO5DGw0QG7NfYwbUflAaNRV_ljL51KqrNoQV0AdEetiWauYmab1O_GjVvCOudxDs52JwrFXbWBbqEqxhU7qQ3TS--F13f/https%3A%2F%2Fbluemail.me> >>>> On Jun 18, 2022, at 5:13 PM, Charles Mills >>>> <charl...@mcn.org<mailto:charl...@mcn.org>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I always like the stories about the companies that are in the eighth year >>>> of >>>> a three-year project to get off the mainframe. >>>> >>>> Enzo, my friend, you have just kicked the hornets' nest! You had better >>>> duck, because the onslaught is coming. "The mainframe is [not] dead" is >>>> near >>>> and dear to the hearts of IBM-MAINers. >>>> >>>> Yes, I think the consensus is that the mainframe has a future. IBM seems to >>>> be focused mainly on the very largest shops, so the trend seems to be >>>> bigger >>>> and bigger machines at fewer and fewer companies. But it is hard to >>>> envision >>>> Bank of America balancing their checking accounts every day on an array of >>>> Windows servers, in their datacenter or in the cloud. My reading of the tea >>>> leaves -- I am not an insider -- is that for a long time IBM was *saying* >>>> the mainframe was here to stay but internally they did not believe it and >>>> were not making decisions on that basis -- but I think that has now >>>> changed. >>>> IBM appears to have made a HUGE investment in the z16, an investment that >>>> will take more than 5 or more years to recoup. >>>> >>>> Welcome aboard! >>>> >>>> Charles >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On >>>> Behalf Of Enzo D'Amato >>>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 1:56 PM >>>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and >>>> AWS >>>> >>>> As someone who is new to this field, and hasn't been though a wave of "the >>>> mainframe is going away" yet, will there still be companies running the >>>> mainframe 5 or 10 years down the line? Also, when I read about companies >>>> trying to get off of the mainframe, how often do these efforts end up >>>> succeeding? >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of >>>> Mike Schwab <mike.a.sch...@gmail.com> >>>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2022 12:04 AM >>>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: Modernize Mainframe Applications for Hybrid Cloud with IBM and >>>> AWS >>>> >>>> Moshix signed up for an AWS instance, loaded up Hercules and Turnkey >>>> 4-, got it going, and allowed some other people to log in. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 8:31 AM Bill Johnson >>>> <00000047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>> Cloud - Something the mainframe has been doing for decades. We called >>>> it >>>> outsourcing. GM ran their entire organization out of mainframes in >>>> Charlotte, Dallas, & perhaps another in the 80's. The internet just made it >>>> easier, and less secure & reliable. Brought outsourcing to a wider >>>> audience. >>>> >>>> Mainframe modernization. An oxymoron. Like saying today's cars are >>>> like >>>> cars from 50 years ago. The mainframe is more advanced than any other >>>> platforms. Billions of dollars of investment and patented technologies have >>>> guaranteed its place for decades to come. >>>> >>>> Sure, AWS, Azure, Oracle cloud & numerous others are creating cheap, >>>> unsecured, unreliable, platforms for small businesses, picture storage, >>>> emails, instant messaging, and many other tasks that aren't show stoppers >>>> if >>>> they're hacked or down for one of many reasons. As Capital One found out >>>> and >>>> lost almost 200 million for the pleasure. >>>> >>>> I enjoy the glee that many of you exude when IBM has what might be >>>> perceived as negative news. I saw the same glee when in the 90's some idiot >>>> said the mainframe would be history circa 2000. >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone >>>> >>>> >>>> On Friday, June 17, 2022, 9:06 AM, zMan <zedgarhoo...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 5:50 AM David Crayford <dcrayf...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Maybe it's the case that customers don't want to use IBMs cloud. >>>> Where I >>>> live in Australia the big four banks are moving significant chunks of >>>> their infrastructure to public cloud and have government legislation >>>> to >>>> do so. NAB in particular have been quite aggressive, although like >>>> most >>>> sensible enterprises they have gone down the multi-cloud route with >>>> Microsoft Azure so they don't have all their eggs in one basket. >>>> >>>> It will be interesting to see if IBM can close the cloud gap. Playing >>>> catch-up is difficult when competing with behemoths with a decade+ >>>> head >>>> start. >>>> >>>> >>>> Indeed. Word from insiders is that since IBM "management" have decided >>>> cloud is The Answer, folks have started playing games, like >>>> attributing >>>> all >>>> CICS-related revenue as "cloud". Q4 2020, IBM claimed $6.2B in cloud >>>> revenue on total revenue of $16B. Given that nobody EVER says"cloud" >>>> and >>>> "IBM" in the same sentence in the real world, those numbers are quite >>>> difficult to believe without this kind of gameplaying. >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA >>>> Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
