I have a pristine, complete boxed copy of IBM Markup in 3.5 and 5.25 diskettes. IBM Markup, Version 1.0, part no. 6476161, dated 10/1987, S544-3357-00, is described in the license information as “… an IBM Personal Computer entry-assist program that allows you to create and edit GML documents using DCF R3.0 or 3.1+ running in either VM/CMS or MVS/TSO.” Central Service terminated 10/16/1990.
This program requires DOS 2.1 or 3.3 for a file transfer program to the mainframe. Message originated on my iPhone 12 > On Dec 26, 2022, at 9:00 PM, IBM-MAIN automatic digest system > <lists...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > There are 12 messages totaling 546 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. Markup languages (2) > 2. Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word (10) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 14:10:56 +0000 > From: Seymour J Metz <sme...@gmu.edu> > Subject: Re: Markup languages > > I doubt it, since mark was primarily interested in XEDIT compatibility. > Similarly, I don't expect to see a chart comparint e.g., ooRexx, Regina, to > KEXX. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > ________________________________________ > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > Jeremy Nicoll [jn.ls.mfrm...@letterboxes.org] > Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2022 3:07 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Markup languages > >> On Fri, 23 Dec 2022, at 12:51, Seymour J Metz wrote: >> emacs >> THE >> vi >> ... > > I've never used either emacs or vi and don't much want to have to > learn another text editor's command set. > > Regarding THE, is there a list anywhere of what the differences between > it and Kedit are? Wading through the THE documentation looking at > each command is tedious, and it's not helped by finding out that some > things are labelled "(not implemented)". > > >> You may have my copy of TSPF when they pry it out of my cold, dead >> fingers. > > I suspect that actually getting it from your estate might be tricky.... > > -- > Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 14:44:30 +0000 > From: Seymour J Metz <sme...@gmu.edu> > Subject: Re: Markup languages > > TeX is the underlying language. I believe that most people use a document > development environment with an editor and preview facility. Some of the > available environments can automatically download required packages from > CTAN. It is possible to generate a PDF without an intermediate DVI file. > > I'd start by looking at MiKTeX, TeX Live and TeXworks, or browse CTAN. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > ________________________________________ > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 6:38 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Markup languages > > I got quite a few nominations from the two forums where I posted this > question, and it's early days to say I've settled on one, but currently I'm > looking hard at LaTeX. I found a tutorial on it at javatpoint.com, but that > was written by a non-native-English writer (maybe he a Slav?, guessing by > his odd use of definite articles) and there are some phrases in there I > can't parse with confidence. I imagine whatever documentation comes with > the download will be clearer. > > But it seems there are multiple pieces I need to fetch. I get the > impression that TEX is the actual markup language, and LaTeX is ... what? A > series of extensions to TEX to allow it to do more? And I need a program > that will convert my text and markup codes to a printer-ready document, > and/or to a PDF file. And most people use a text editor specifically > dedicated to working with LaTeX; various options for that last are > mentioned. Do you have any specific recommendations? Because I think I'm > about ready to download and experiment. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* A person reveals his character by nothing so clearly as the joke he > resents. -G C Lichtenberg */ > > -----Original Message----- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> On Behalf Of > Seymour J Metz > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 08:39 > > My preference, alas, is dead: BookMagager BUILD/MVS (or VM), which is built > on BookMaster and DCF. Lacking that, I make do with LaTeX, which I find > powerful but clumsier that the tools built on Script. > > I make extensive use of nested bulleted and numbered lists, and when I > attempt to copy an entry to a different list, word garbles the markup > horribly. Is there an equivalent to the reveal mode in word pervert that > would allow me to correct that bug? The best that I've been able to come up > with is to copy the entry to notepad and then copy from notepad. > > I would recommend a LaTeX environment, e.g., MiKTeX, TeXworks. Check out > resources at CTAN. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 09:52:16 -0500 > From: Bob Bridges <robhbrid...@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word > > Once we were done with Christmas morning, my son and his family took off for > other Christmas venues and I spent most of the day downloading MiKTeX (an > editor for LateX) and reading documentatino. Finding the documentation was > a bit of a chore and I'm not satisfied yet that I have everything I'll need, > but the web eventually yielded up manuals whose titles, at least, claim > they're about LaTeX, LaTeX2e, TeXWorks and MikTeX. I have a lot of reading > yet to do. > > This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it as > PDF. Turns out Word is awful at that too. It skipped over most of the ToC > and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second chapter, > omitting the Intro. I probably won't bother to see what else is wrong with > it. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* Do right, and God's recompense to you will be the power of doing more > right. Give, and God's reward to you will be the spirit of giving > more....Love, and God will pay you with the capacity of more love.... -F W > Robertson */ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 16:02:32 +0000 > From: Seymour J Metz <sme...@gmu.edu> > Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word > > If you will be writing your own macros, I'd suggest looking at expl3 (LaTeX > 3) and friends; still experimental, but quite handy. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > ________________________________________ > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, December 26, 2022 9:52 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word > > Once we were done with Christmas morning, my son and his family took off for > other Christmas venues and I spent most of the day downloading MiKTeX (an > editor for LateX) and reading documentatino. Finding the documentation was > a bit of a chore and I'm not satisfied yet that I have everything I'll need, > but the web eventually yielded up manuals whose titles, at least, claim > they're about LaTeX, LaTeX2e, TeXWorks and MikTeX. I have a lot of reading > yet to do. > > This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it as > PDF. Turns out Word is awful at that too. It skipped over most of the ToC > and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second chapter, > omitting the Intro. I probably won't bother to see what else is wrong with > it. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* Do right, and God's recompense to you will be the power of doing more > right. Give, and God's reward to you will be the spirit of giving > more....Love, and God will pay you with the capacity of more love.... -F W > Robertson */ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 10:54:10 -0600 > From: Charles Mills <charl...@mcn.org> > Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word > > I have avoided replying on this thread. It is not my job to shill for > Microsoft on a mainframe forum. > > However, just to get the facts on the record, let me say that I have been > composing very complex manuals with included text and generated TODs and > indexes in MS-Word for years, and publishing them as PDFs, with 100% success. > > Charles > > > -----Original Message----- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Bob Bridges > Sent: Monday, December 26, 2022 6:52 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word > > Once we were done with Christmas morning, my son and his family took off for > other Christmas venues and I spent most of the day downloading MiKTeX (an > editor for LateX) and reading documentatino. Finding the documentation was a > bit of a chore and I'm not satisfied yet that I have everything I'll need, > but the web eventually yielded up manuals whose titles, at least, claim > they're about LaTeX, LaTeX2e, TeXWorks and MikTeX. I have a lot of reading > yet to do. > > This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it as > PDF. Turns out Word is awful at that too. It skipped over most of the ToC > and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second chapter, > omitting the Intro. I probably won't bother to see what else is wrong with > it. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 18:38:09 +0100 > From: Peter Sylvester <peter.sylves...@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word > >> On 26/12/2022 17:54, Charles Mills wrote: >> I have avoided replying on this thread. It is not my job to shill for >> Microsoft on a mainframe forum. >> >> However, just to get the facts on the record, let me say that I have been >> composing very complex manuals with included text and generated TODs and >> indexes in MS-Word for years, and publishing them as PDFs, with 100% success. >> >> Charles >> >> > We seem to share a similar experience. :-) > > Peter > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 13:52:08 -0600 > From: Paul Gilmartin <paulgboul...@aol.com> > Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word > >> On Mon, 26 Dec 2022 09:52:16 -0500, Bob Bridges wrote: >> ... >> This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it as >> PDF. Turns out Word is awful at that too. It skipped over most of the ToC >> and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second chapter, >> omitting the Intro. I probably won't bother to see what else is wrong with >> it. >> > Seems more like a problem with mail than with Word. Did you bother to see > that the file you received was identical to the file you mailed? > > -- > gil > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 21:13:21 +0100 > From: Peter Sylvester <peter.sylves...@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word > >> On 26/12/2022 20:52, Paul Gilmartin wrote: >>> On Mon, 26 Dec 2022 09:52:16 -0500, Bob Bridges wrote: >>> ... >>> This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it as >>> PDF. Turns out Word is awful at that too. It skipped over most of the ToC >>> and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second chapter, >>> omitting the Intro. I probably won't bother to see what else is wrong with >>> it. >>> >> Seems more like a problem with mail than with Word. Did you bother to see >> that the file you received was identical to the file you mailed? >> > File not saved before email? > > table of contents was not updated before save? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 17:44:14 -0500 > From: Bob Bridges <robhbrid...@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word > > In fact I did not. Good point. It happens I'm still logged on at the client > cite; let's try it there... > > Nope, same problem. Nevertheless I was hasty to blame Word; it's very > possible I just didn't set it up correctly in the .docx format. I know > better than to manually set formatting and believe it's the same as defining > and using styles, but there may even so be mistakes in my work. > > Still, though; if I'm going to make that kind of mistake in Word, I think I'm > better off using a markup language instead. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* ...the director and the writers keep changing the script. The actors will > do a scene, and the director will say, "OK, that was perfect, but this time, > Bob, instead of saying 'What's for dinner?' you say, 'Wait a minute! Benzene > is actually a hydrocarbon!' And say it with a Norwegian accent. Also, we > think maybe your character should have no arms." -Dave Barry, describing his > acting debut in "Dave's World" */ > > -----Original Message----- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> On Behalf Of > Paul Gilmartin > Sent: Monday, December 26, 2022 14:52 > > Seems more like a problem with mail than with Word. Did you bother to see > that the file you received was identical to the file you mailed? > >> --- On Mon, 26 Dec 2022 09:52:16 -0500, Bob Bridges wrote: >> This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it >> as PDF. Turns out Word is awful at that too. It skipped over most of >> the ToC and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second >> chapter, omitting the Intro. I probably won't bother to see what else is >> wrong with it. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 10:17:13 +0800 > From: David Crayford <dcrayf...@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word > > MS Word is a great product for it's main use case. I don't consider it a > good choice for technical documentation and neither does the Information > Developer in my team. There are many better tools out there, some of > which are free. Documentation in today's world can be published in many > different formats. Text documents, HTML, PDF etc. Documentation should > be considered code, which is why markdown is so popular. Documentation > should go through the same development pipeline as source code with a > pull request and a code review before being committed to a SCM and > rendered into product artifacts. MS Word is useless for team > collaboration. It's ok for a one person team but doesn't scale. > > My team uses https://vuejs.org/. At the moment we only build HTML but > there are packages to render a multitidue of different formats including > PDF, word docs etc. Extensions are written in Typescript or Javascript > so there is a massive eco-system to pull from. > >> On 27/12/22 00:54, Charles Mills wrote: >> I have avoided replying on this thread. It is not my job to shill for >> Microsoft on a mainframe forum. >> >> However, just to get the facts on the record, let me say that I have been >> composing very complex manuals with included text and generated TODs and >> indexes in MS-Word for years, and publishing them as PDFs, with 100% success. >> >> Charles >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On >> Behalf Of Bob Bridges >> Sent: Monday, December 26, 2022 6:52 AM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word >> >> Once we were done with Christmas morning, my son and his family took off for >> other Christmas venues and I spent most of the day downloading MiKTeX (an >> editor for LateX) and reading documentatino. Finding the documentation was >> a bit of a chore and I'm not satisfied yet that I have everything I'll need, >> but the web eventually yielded up manuals whose titles, at least, claim >> they're about LaTeX, LaTeX2e, TeXWorks and MikTeX. I have a lot of reading >> yet to do. >> >> This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it as >> PDF. Turns out Word is awful at that too. It skipped over most of the ToC >> and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second chapter, >> omitting the Intro. I probably won't bother to see what else is wrong with >> it. >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 18:43:33 -0800 > From: Ed Jaffe <edja...@phoenixsoftware.com> > Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word > >> On 12/26/2022 6:17 PM, David Crayford wrote: >> >> My team uses https://vuejs.org/. At the moment we only build HTML but >> there are packages to render a multitidue of different formats >> including PDF, word docs etc. Extensions are written in Typescript or >> Javascript so there is a massive eco-system to pull from. > > > For many years we used MS Word for our product documentation, but it was > just too buggy and cumbersome. > > Our team now uses MadCap Flare. It's a "best of breed" solution > specifically designed for technical documentation. > > https://www.madcapsoftware.com/products/flare/ > > We use it to deliver our documentation in three formats: Adobe PDF, > HTML, and Eclipse plug-ins that can be used with IBM InfoCenter and > KnowledgeCenter (including KC4Z on z/OS). > > > -- > Phoenix Software International > Edward E. Jaffe > 831 Parkview Drive North > El Segundo, CA 90245 > https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This e-mail message, including any attachments, appended messages and the > information contained therein, is for the sole use of the intended > recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient or have otherwise > received this email message in error, any use, dissemination, distribution, > review, storage or copying of this e-mail message and the information > contained therein is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended > recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies > of this email message and do not otherwise utilize or retain this email > message or any or all of the information contained therein. Although this > email message and any attachments or appended messages are believed to be > free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into > which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient > to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by the > sender for any loss or damage arising in any way from its opening or use. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 12:35:48 +0800 > From: David Crayford <dcrayf...@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word > > On 27/12/22 10:43, Ed Jaffe wrote: >>> My team uses https://vuejs.org/. At the moment we only build HTML but >>> there are packages to render a multitidue of different formats >>> including PDF, word docs etc. Extensions are written in Typescript or >>> Javascript so there is a massive eco-system to pull from. >> >> >> For many years we used MS Word for our product documentation, but it >> was just too buggy and cumbersome. >> >> Our team now uses MadCap Flare. It's a "best of breed" solution >> specifically designed for technical documentation. >> >> https://www.madcapsoftware.com/products/flare/ >> >> We use it to deliver our documentation in three formats: Adobe PDF, >> HTML, and Eclipse plug-ins that can be used with IBM InfoCenter and >> KnowledgeCenter (including KC4Z on z/OS) > > Looks great! It supports DITA which we use for our IBM marketed products > that get published on KC. I like that it has extensive build automation > including a CLI so integrating into a DevOps pipeline using Jenkins or > other build automation is simple. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ------------------------------ > > End of IBM-MAIN Digest - 25 Dec 2022 to 26 Dec 2022 (#2022-355) > *************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
