On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:06 AM, Terry Reedy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2/10/2014 6:07 PM, Glyph wrote:
>
>> And let me make a halfhearted attempt to bring this on-topic: it would
>> be absolutely /amazing/ if IDLE actually had a plugin to allow you to
>> write some HTML and some CSS and stuff so that new users could easily
>> get up and running with something that looks "real" to modern students
>> (i.e. a web page that they can share, not just some turtle graphics on a
>> canvas).
>
> I need more information to know what you are suggesting.
>
> What do you see as the relation between Python and html that Idle should be
> html aware rather than C aware?
It's not so mucha bout the relationship between Python and HTML, but rather
between HTML and the average prospective student. HTML is a terrible language,
CSS is worse, but HTML+CSS is where the students "live" - basically everyone in
the world is familiar with web pages at this point in history, so allowing them
to create visual (or textual, for those with vision impairment, who will still
be familiar with web browsers!) experiences that directly correspond to things
they're familiar with will drive home the relevance of "CP4E".
> Why should one edit html in Idle rather that in one of the many Html Editor
> programs?
Why should one edit Python in Idle, for that matter? ;-) For Python it
integrates the module editing with an interactive shell; the same could be true
for HTML.
> What would be Idle's competitive advantage in a crowded field?
Integration. Idle is positioned as a simple, effective editor for learners,
and smoothing the somewhat bumpy road between Python and the mess of browser
technologies (HTML/CSS/JS/how do I run a server/how do I get a database
created) would make it possible for learners to create whole systems that are
directly useful and relevant to them.
I'm not suggesting that IDLE become a sophisticated HTML workflow tool for
teams or anything like that - just that it have a basic, opinionated workflow
available to ease the transition from simple input-output text programs to
simple web-based things. Let me be clear: to make this a complete package,
you'd need to have better feedback than I'm able to provide from a real
educator.
> Is this idea predicated on having a means to run a subset of Python 3 in a
> browser?
Not entirely; one still might be able to do something interesting and
interactive by having Idle run a web server and having a local web browser (or
HTML view, if such a thing were possible) and having server-side Python
generate some HTML.
> Note 1: it would be trivial to have Idle recognize .xyz files, but it is
> currently a python-specific and non-python general text editor.
What is a '.xyz' file?
> Note 2: I presume, but do not know, that an extension could effectively
> subclass EditorWindow and override some of the methods.
>
> One can edit html now in an editor window as plain text. What additional
> behaviors would you add if Idle recognized .html? Syntax highlight embedded
> Python (as already requested on the tracker)?
Yup, that would be great.
> Syntax highlight html constructs (which would require an html parser)?
Yes, this would also be useful. html5lib is one simple 'pip install' away...
> 'Run' the file (F5) in a browser rather than in a shell? (The existing
> webbrowser module would make this easy.)
That would be good too.
> What would be 'amazing' is a way to have a form displayed in either by python
> (tkinter) or a browser, or drawings and even animation displayed on either a
> tkinter Canvas or the HTML5 equivalent.
+1 to that as well.
Tempting as it is to talk about the stuff related to extensions that was a bit
afield of my point so I'll refrain ;-).
-g
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