there is a big difference between these two terms the politically-correct notion of concensus that's been used in a couple of postings is based on the notion that everyone's opinion is equally important they aren't - people should get over it rough consensus weights opinions based on the demonstrated clue density of the opinion holder. that means an effort can come to closure when some others still don't understand what's going on. yup - it can be subjective, as are most design decisions. again, people should get over it. remember, when doing its best work, the IETF is a *meritocracy* and some are a lot more equal than others and sometimes there *isn't* a "mutual accomodation", and that's fine, but then someone has to make tie-breaking a decision and move on. again, the goal is forward progress doing good work. bare feet sometimes don't fare too well. important note: the IETF excercise isn't about making people happy, it's about doing good work when people strongly advocate doing less-than-good things, they often end up unhappy this is a feature cheers -Mike O'Dell