Hi Ross, Please see below:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2009, Ross Callon wrote: > Speaking solely as an individual, providing only my personal opinion: > Same here. > I think that this is not acceptable and we should not sign it. > Agreed. > I understand that no location is perfect. However, I think that this goes > well beyond what > we normally put up with and well beyond what we should put up with. > > There are two classes of issues which concern me: > > The first is the risk to the IETF. I understand that the likelihood of > anything happening > as a result of this is very low. However, the IETF is a very unruly and > opinionated group, and is probably more unruly than other groups that > have recently met in China (or anywhere else). We have little idea what > IETF attendees will do either in spite of or even because of this > restriction. It would not be surprising to have some sort of major > dust-up at the IESG plenary over this issue, and we don't know how the > host country officials would react to this. Also, while the risk of the > meeting being stopped in the middle seems very low, if it did happen > this would be a very bad result for all concerned. If one IETF attendee were > to be > booted out of the hosting country based on something that they said or > put on their slides or in a jabber room even that would be very bad. > > Also, from a moral point of view I don't think that we should accept this. > Freedom of > speech is a very basic freedom that is guaranteed in a wide range of > countries (although of course not all). The people who live there don't > have the ability to say "no" without serious consequences. We DO have > the ability to say no, and I think that we should. > I agree with that. This is basically about freedom of speech. It would be ironical to host a meeting of the IETF, which stands for open Internet standards, in a setting which limits open speech. This is purely my personal opinion as well. rahul > Again, this is just my personal opinion, and not the opinion of any > group nor organization 'that I might happen to be associated with. > > thanks, Ross > > -----Original Message----- > From: iesg-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:iesg-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Marshall Eubanks > Sent: 18 September 2009 11:42 > To: IETF Announcement list; IETF-Discussion list; Working Group Chairs > Cc: IAOC Jabberr; IAB IAB; IESG; irtf-ch...@irtf.org > Subject: Request for community guidance on issue concerning a future meeting > of the IETF > > Greetings; > > We have received numerous suggestions and requests for an IETF meeting > in China and the IAOC has been working on a potential China meeting for > several years. We are now close to making a decision on a potential > upcoming meeting in China. However, the following issue has arisen > and we would appreciate your feedback. > > The Chinese government has imposed a rule on all conferences held > since 2008 regarding political speech. A fundamental law in China > requires that one not criticize the government. Practically, this > has reference to public political statements or protest marches, which > are not the IETF's custom. The government, which is a party to the > issue, > requires that people who attend conferences in China (the IETF being > but one example) not engage in political speech during their tour > in China. We consider this to be acceptable, on the basis that the > IETF intends to abide by the laws of whatever nations it visits and > we don't believe that this impacts our ability to do technical work. > > The rule is implemented in the Hotel agreement and reads (note that > the "Client" would be the Host, and the "Group" would be the IETF) : > > "Should the contents of the Group's activities, visual or audio > presentations at the conference,or printed materials used at the > conference (which are within the control of the Client) contain > any defamation against the Government of the People's Republic > of China, or show any disrespect to the Chinese culture, or > violates any laws of the People's Republic of China or feature > any topics regarding human rights or religion without prior > approval from the Government of the People's Republic of China, > the Hotel reserves the right to terminate the event on the spot > and/or ask the person(s) who initiates or participates in any or > all of the above action to leave the hotel premises immediately. > > The Client will support and assist the Hotel with the necessary > actions to handle such situations. Should there be any financial > loss incurred to the Hotel or damage caused to the Hotel's > reputation as a result of any or all of the above acts, the Hotel > will claim compensation from the Client." > > What does this condition mean ? The hotel staff would have, in theory, > the legal right to shut down the meeting and ask the offending > participants to leave the property immediately. While we do not > foresee a situation where such action would take place, we feel that > it is proper to disclose these conditions to the community. > > The members of the IAOC, speaking as individuals, do not like this > condition as a matter of principle. The IAOC does believe that this > condition would not prevent the IETF from conducting its business. > > We note that the Vancouver/Quebec survey conducted earlier this year > asked for people to suggest venues in Asia; an overwhelming majority > (94%) of those who mentioned China were in favor of having a meeting > there. > > We are therefore asking for input from the community by two means - by > commenting on the IETF discussion list, and also by completing a very > short survey on people's intentions to travel to China, or not, > subject to these conditions. This survey can be found here : > > https://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=h4DUkRUOdG_2bVLqioPcYYHw_3d_3d > > All responses received by October 1, 2009 at 9:00 AM EDT (1300 UTC) > will be considered by the IAOC in making its decision. We appreciate > the assistance of the community in providing us with data that will > help us to make an informed decision. > > Regards > Marshall Eubanks > (acting for the IAOC) > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf > _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
