Hi Sudhir,
Thanks for the clarifications. Since my name comes up so often in
your message, I feel that I must respond. My comments inline.
>>>>> "Sudhir" == Sudhir Gandotra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Sudhir> Hello Friends, Now that the matter is being discussed, it
Sudhir> is only proper to put the whole thing in open, so that,
Sudhir> while opinions are formed and decisions taken, the
Sudhir> story/matter is know to all, from the beginning. I will be
Sudhir> happy that others (who were in this discussion from
Sudhir> beginning) corect me if they find me wrong somewhere,
Sudhir> although I know I am just mentioning what was discussed.
Sudhir> On around 17 July I requested Raj Mathur for info of next
Sudhir> meeting informing him that I would like to share news of a
Sudhir> linux based development in the meeting. After hearing from
Sudhir> him that the meeting will be on 21st, I confirmed that I
Sudhir> will be back to delhi by then and that I would like to
Sudhir> present a Linux application on this ocassion. The
Sudhir> announce ment was made on the list (as usual) about it and
Sudhir> it was in the agenda. As I was travelling, we could not
Sudhir> discuss more than this. I specially flew from Chennai on
Sudhir> 21st morning to be in delhi for the meeting (did it
Sudhir> because I was happy to make the announcement in the LUG
Sudhir> efore the whole world knew it). Before going to meeting,
Sudhir> on 21st I called Raj mathur on phone and told him the
Sudhir> following: 1. That we have developed the first financial
Sudhir> accounting package on Linux and that IBM is going to
Sudhir> announce it in next few days to the world. 2. That I
Sudhir> would like to make the first announcement in the
Sudhir> LUG-delhi. 3. That, the retail cost of the software is
Sudhir> Rs.10,000, and I would like to make the following offer to
Sudhir> all members of LUG-delhi: With their proposed membership
Sudhir> fee of Rs.100/- they pay another Rs.100/- and get a
Sudhir> complete version of the software. And that this aditional
Sudhir> Rs.100/- would go towards corpus fund of the
Sudhir> LUG-delhi. The advantage of doing this would be manifold:
Sudhir> Members would get something useful at a throwaway price
Sudhir> and LUG would get some funds. Raj Mathus's resposne was:
Sudhir> Fine Sudhir, let's discuss it in the meeting and do
Sudhir> accordingly.
I'd also asked you over that same phone conversation itself whether
the software was free (as in freedom) or not. Initially I'd said OK
to the demonstration and discussion about the software. However on
receiving your response that the software was proprietary I'd
specifically said that we'd have to discuss the demo at the meet.
Sudhir> With this I went to the meeting. There Raj Mathur
Sudhir> announces: Friends, here we have Sudhir Gandotra who wants
Sudhir> to announce a commercial and proprietory software on
Sudhir> Linux. But before we do that, we have a question "Whether
Sudhir> we as the group should allow such
Sudhir> discussions/announcements here or not, since we are a free
Sudhir> software group......................the rest is known to
Sudhir> all those who were present and those who have followed the
Sudhir> issue in the list.
Sudhir> At a particular moment is discussion, Raj Mathur mentioned
Sudhir> that Sudhir wants the LUG to discuss and promote the
Sudhir> software and I clearly clarified (and I stand by that):
Sudhir> That I do not want the group to promote my software; that
Sudhir> I do not want it to do anything that will help the
Sudhir> software in anyway; that my only intention to announce it
Sudhir> here is an emotional feeling of wanting to announce it
Sudhir> first to the Linux group and then to rest of the world;
Sudhir> that I do not expect and do not need the LUG to promote it
Sudhir> (I said this with a clear emphasis and said it
Sudhir> repeatedly).
In my dictionary using the resources of the LUG to spread awareness of
the software (to howsoever limited an audience) is the same as
promoting it. Just because there were 20 and not 2000 people present
at the meeting doesn't detract from that point.
Sudhir> So, Raj Mathur, as you mention in another mail (reply to
Sudhir> Sandip), the question was not of promoting the
Sudhir> closed-source software, the questiuon was of talking about
Sudhir> it, knowing about it, announcing it.
Brand recognition and brand awareness are part of promotion. Ask any
halfway competent advertising person if you don't believe me :-)
Sudhir> Raj Mathur, if you cannot stand by your statement "of
Sudhir> leaving the group, if it were to become something other
Sudhir> than a free software group and starting perhaps another
Sudhir> group if I have the energy for it", well, let everyone
Sudhir> make their own conclusions. Because I was not the only one
Sudhir> present there listening to it.
Of course I stand by my statement! I was just pointing out earlier
that the statement (which I stand by) is not the one that you had
attributed to me in your earlier mail.
Sudhir> Tripta, now you are saying "i personally do not think that
Sudhir> there are limits for anyone's participation within the
Sudhir> group" and while this discussion was proposed, you were
Sudhir> not in favour of the expression that was requested.
Sudhir> For me, it is fine with whatever the group decides on this
Sudhir> issue. The point that is important to me is that we should
Sudhir> take a decision. If Raj Mathur and the group wants it to
Sudhir> be a Free Software group, something that is GNU, it is
Sudhir> fine for me. But, it should be clear to everyone that it
Sudhir> is a GNU group.
Sudhir> For me, that means: that it is not a LINUX group and there
Sudhir> will then be need of a LINUX group and people who may be
Sudhir> interested in having a LINUX group, may find the interest
Sudhir> to form one. But, they will also become clear that DLUG is
Sudhir> a GNU group. Let's stand up and be clear on what we want
Sudhir> and what we propose and stand by it - that is all I am
Sudhir> requesting. And if we want it to be a mix of GNU and
Sudhir> LINUX, it is fine for me, but, then the conduction has to
Sudhir> be different. Both have to get their space of
Sudhir> representation and expression. GNU cannot stop
Sudhir> LINUX. Infact, there is no way that these two need to be
Sudhir> against each other.
To reiterate my view:
ILUG-Delhi is a group that promotes freedom. That freedom could be in
any field, though our primary concerns will be personal freedom,
freedom in IT and freedom in software, in increasing order of
importance. We call ourselves the India Linux Users' Group and
promote and discuss Linux since Linux is the visible manifestation of
freedom in software and a vanguard of the free software movement.
That does not mean, however, that we reject other manifestations of
freedom. Nor do we blindly consider everything Linux-related to be
relevant or desirable unless it promotes the basic goal of freedom.
In summary: Our objective is freedom. Linux is a means to that
objective. Hence Linux is good for us and we shall promote Linux.
However individual pieces of software will be evaluated on the basis
of how they promote the final goal, freedom, rather than how they
relate to making Linux more popular.
Once again (and damn, I DO have to keep repeating this, don't I!)
these are MY views, NOT the group's. I'm willing to discuss them, and
would like to do so in the next meeting (whenever it does happen ;-) I
doubt if I personally will change from the stand of desiring freedom
above all else, so if there's a majority of people who feel that
promoting Linux at all costs is the right way to go, I shall happily
(or maybe not so happily) resign my office in ILUG-Delhi, while
retaining membership. That doesn't really matter, since ILUG-Delhi is
now at the stage where the addition or subtraction of one individual
shouldn't have much impact on the overall goals and strategies of the
group. As stated earlier, I further reserve the right to form another
group whose goals are freedom (perhaps linked to Linux) above all.
On the other hand if there're enough people who believe that freedom
is more important than Linux, then maybe we should just continue doing
things the way we have so far. In that case, as stated by Sudhir, he
or anyone else also has the right to form a separate group that
promotes Linux at any cost. I may even take membership in that group
if the fees aren't too high :-)
BTW, I doubt if anything's going to be resolved once and for all at
the next meet. However, do expect fireworks, and bring your asbestos
underwear along ;-) And please do be there, since the discussions are
going to be about our very reason for existence and the direction of
our survival.
Sudhir> Finally, my announcement was stalled, and I will say,
Sudhir> stalled very smartly. I don't consider it a harm to me. I
Sudhir> consider it a harm to the group, because the group was
Sudhir> denied the information. But, if the group, by majority,
Sudhir> considers this subject to be outside its limits, I am
Sudhir> sorry that I did not understand the parameters of the
Sudhir> group's ideology and aims. I am sorry that I considered it
Sudhir> to be a LINUX group because it was formed to be a LINUX
Sudhir> group; I am sorry that I did not participate in it more
Sudhir> actively that while it was formed as a LINUX group (I was
Sudhir> part of it from the pre-formation time), it became
Sudhir> something different. And, if that be the case, I close
Sudhir> this topic since it is not a GNU topic.
Sudhir> Let me also make it clear that I am not against GNU, I am
Sudhir> not against open-source software. But, here, I am talking
Sudhir> about LINUX as a whole, something very well explained by
Sudhir> Sandip in his mail.
GNU, like Linux, is just another manifestation of the urge for
freedom. No more and no less. It is not an objective in itself, nor
is it paramount.
Sudhir> Regarding FREEDOM, we all are mature enough to form and
Sudhir> live by our conclusions. Everyone faces consequences of
Sudhir> one's own thoughts, feelings and actions.
Regards,
-- Raju
--
Raju Mathur [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://kandalaya.org/
It is the mind that moves
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