Brian: I appreciate your thoughtful and informative reply. Kapolei, an "aspirational" so-called "city," a node tagged place=city is certainly OSM "channeling local consensus!" I have every good reason to agree with this tagging except I'd say "technically place=suburb seems more OSM-correct" and I think we'd both be largely if not completely correct. Yes, especially because it is a node. Whether city or suburb sounds like it could be a potentially endless "local vs. purist" sort of round-and-round. So, I now politely back away from Kapolei — no, thanks to further discussion about it. (Locals are welcome to, I'm staying out of it).
To the question "IS Honolulu a CCC or is it 'just' an unincorporated place inside a county?" I believe knowledgable people would say it is NOT the latter (it is the only incorporated place in the state of Hawaii), it is a CCC and that includes both a city called Honolulu (which may be the same as or coterminous with Honolulu County and/or the island of Oahu, but I'm not sure about that) and a county which seems like it goes all the way out to Green Island (thousands of kilometers WNW towards Japan). Yes, in your "Just a County" paragraph, I am perplexed by the seeming paradox of point #1. I don't know what to make of this, except that somebody ought to be able to assert a boundary of "Honolulu City," distinct from "the rest of the island of Oahu which is not in the City of Honolulu." That would clinch it in my mind, but I do not have or know those data. Perhaps we make it a goal of ours to do our best to attain those, if they exist. I don't know what to make of point #2, as "can't be a CCC" doesn't follow from "much evidence asserts it is a CCC." So I'll ignore point #2. I'll also ignore point #3 as post offices merely (at most in OSM in the USA) lend the name of their post office to a method of associating place=locality (perhaps isolated_dwelling, hamlet or village) with a usually more-rural area, where the mail is delivered and a Zone Improvement Plan (ZIP code) denotes the mail sorting/routing algorithm (not a true boundary). You began wanting to denote CDPs, it evolves into CCC discussion (very good!) and then you further "muddy" with post office. These are three different semantics OSM can, should and does denote. Let's not conflate them in this discussion. Point #4 seems important and must "somehow" be addressed in OSM. I continue to believe that "people" (city council members of Honolulu?) should be able to provide geo data which assert "these are the boundaries of the City of Honolulu, as incorporated." Whatever those are, tag them with boundary=administrative, admin_level=8 and perhaps border_type=city (the last feels kind of funky old-school to me, but I don't remove it as I see it). Point #5 is a red herring. A City can refer to itself without referring to "sibling" or "parent" political hierarchy relationships, even as those most certain exist (as they most certainly do at the city level, both "sibling" as with a County, as in CCC, and to the "state" (territory, commonwealth, province...) and federal level as "parent." So just because Honolulu doesn't mention Oahu (or its sibling or parent county and it's one or the other, but not both) doesn't mean the "partnership" (whether parent-child or sibling-sibling) doesn't exist, that's not a real proof that demonstrates anything except a City talking about itself. There are many 39 other examples of CCC in the USA, yet I agree with you that each has certain subtle and slight differences from one another due to their history and the way that a CCC "smashes two together." The results of this is that the "eaches" can be distinct, the resulting mash-up can be unique, the alignments between other similar entities can be loose, moderately similar or rather tight and quite alike. This makes DIRECT comparison difficult, though we can be inspired by similarities when/as we find them. What if we leave relation/119231 largely alone, yet clean up its tags to make is a CDP, as that is its heritage)? We remove the admin_level=8 tag (I do this all the time to other CDPs which absolutely incorrectly have admin_level=7, sometimes 8, sometimes 9, rarely 6 (I think those are all gone). AND, importantly, we remove the place=city tag. (And while we're at it, remove border_type=census, too; this is a noisy, largely meaningless as it is so confused tag, at least on land borders, on certain well-tagged maritime borders, it does have OK meaning). THEN, we create a node (leaving 119231 extant, but cleaning up its tags as above) and tag this new node with place=city, name=Honolulu, capital=yes, is_in:state=Hawaii (though it is my understanding that is_in tagging may be deprecating) and perhaps population=* and additional tags as they are known. Importantly, as a node, no particular boundary is created. The node could also be with tagged with note="Might be tagged with role 'admin_centre' when included in a boundary=administrative relation in the future, when distinct boundaries of Honolulu are included in that relation as (multi)polygon data." That paves some good road ahead for a more-specific future dataset (maybe a Honolulu city council member points you to a university librarian or city hall clerk who says "here are GIS data"). Queries, especially when asked correctly and ask of correct data, give correct answers. It's amazing how that works. Getting the data correct and asking the right questions after the semantics have had heads properly wrapped around them and the syntax to get there hashed out (especially in tread-tenderly specific local cases, like this) can be challenging for many, I agree. It makes my head swim a bit at times! There ARE municipalities in Hawaii: exactly one municipality named Honolulu, which is a CCC coterminous with "something" — the county of Honolulu?, the island of Oahu?, the island of Oahu + all islands out to Green? I don't know, but somebody does. Let's find out and tag accordingly. Taking into account what the locals think, as well, of course. This has been and is excellent discussion; thank you. SteveA On Sep 15, 2019, at 3:46 PM, Brian M. Sperlongano <zelonew...@gmail.com> wrote: > Steve, > > To me, it does not seem appropriate that there are any cities in the county > of Oahu besides the single city of Honolulu > > There is the case of Kapolei, tagline "Oahu's second city", complete with a > small compact urban downtown area. It is already marked (correctly, IMO) > with a place=city node. It's city status is somewhat aspirational as it's > probably more realistically a suburb of Honolulu, but the nomenclature has > stuck. I wouldn't give it a boundary because it grew organically and it's > not really clear where Kapolei stops and Ewa starts other that what the post > office has determined! > > I think the crux of solving this is answering the question: IS Honolulu a > consolidated city-county, or is it just an unincorporated place inside a > county? > > I could construct a very reasonable list of arguments for yes and no to this > question. So, as a thought experiment, here's my list: > > Consolidated City-County > 1. Honolulu County's wikipedia page refers to it as a CCC > 2. The county uses "City and County of" in its official name which is > commonly used for CCCs > 3. Honolulu regularly appears in lists of US CCCs > > Just a County > 1. Honolulu County's wikipedia page goes on to say "The city–county includes > both the city of Honolulu (the state's capital and largest city) and the rest > of the island of Oʻahu" implying that there are parts of Oahu that are NOT > part of the city therefore paradoxically not a CCC" > 2. There are no municipal level entities in Hawaii (consistent with the > admin_level table), therefore it can't be a CCC > 3. The post office uses > 20 different place names within the county, whereas > most CCCs have one eponymous place name > 4. Locals recognize Honolulu as a city within the county rather than a city > coterminus with a county > 5. The city charter does not use the CCC term > > There are probably other arguments that could be added. The problem is that > there really is no good model for comparison here. I do think as a pragmatic > matter that if someone asked OSM for the list of admin_level=8 entities in > Hawaii and came up with nothing, that would at least be consistent with the > understanding that there aren't municipalities in Hawaii. Whereas, if that > same query came back with the Honolulu County outline that would look and > feel like an unexpected result i.e. "No, I don't want all of Oahu and these > random islands, I want the cities and towns..." _______________________________________________ Imports mailing list Imports@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports
