Thanks Usha di great to touch base with a lively debate after quite a while. :-)
Its interesting that you should extoll the virtues of case reports because even i believe that a 'case study approach' is essential to “portrayal of multi-faceted explorations of complex issues in healthcare.” Yes Rahul's video is a case study subsequently enriched by your pointing out the potential harms and this begs further inquiry. I feel it need not necessarily be pursued through another experimental design as you rightly cautioned but gleaned very well through observational data. Even a review of literature around the question, "How many households with pigeons (rock pigeons?) roosting and nesting over their water tanks have family members developing fungal pneumonia or meningitis?" may yield something and if not a cross-sectional survey of such households to begin with might? I won't push empiricism further on you and we are in the same boat. :-) On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Ushadi Micromini <microminipho...@gmail.com > wrote: > Dear Rahul: ami tomake fool bolini .... > ami sarcastic o hoyii ni... > > I was at the receiving end of diagnosis of lung problems from > environmental infections day in and day out for more than 40 years, I have > seen too much misery...and death . in several continents , and as part of > paleo-medicine, across centuries.. and in some cases across millenia... . > so its natural for me to sound the alarm... > > give me a break and dont be so sensitive, donnobad na dito paro... its ok, > but mero na... > > > if you are writing your thesis on this subject, it would be smart to point > out the pitfalls I have lined up and talk about how you have taken > precautions to avoid just such calamities.... it would strengthen you > viewpoint and argument... bhebe dekho... tomar ki eyi subject-e thesis? > > > it would be good if every body took precautions... like you seem to have > done with water proofing of the terrace floor of the leaf mulching.. > and now that I have told you about the seeds, dont go experimenting.... did > you sterilize the tank lid after the pigeons flew away? you of course know > about the ability of bacteria, fungi and mold spores to traverse thru > impossible little pores in cement etc... and spaces between the > fibre-glass tank and its lid... > > Bhopal-e ele tomar bari dekhte jabo... usha di > > == > > > AND *RAKESH:* Tomar lekha pore mone hochhe you think medical THE TEXT > BOOKS MAY be ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE? > > In some cases its perhaps accepted wisdom, but the infections in meninges > and lungs, allergic reaction with proven antibody tires etc ..based on > biopsies, csf taps and cultures bronchial washings and culture, get > reported as series of cases, or case reports in peer reviewed journals (the > case report can be classified as an anecdote, but it has to be supported by > tests including culture and histological analysis of the pathological > biopsy, hence is a scientific document and not an anecdote that we see on > TV ads like " look I got better by taking this voodoo medicine" type of > anecdote") and then after a series of such reports and its written up in > textbooks... do you remember how *legionnaires *disease was diagnosed > and then reported in Philly <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionellosis>and > then elsewhere and now all over the world and then it got into > textbooks.... it all happened in last 30-35 years... solid clinical and lab > work has been done in each instance and reported to scientific societies, > their journals and center for disease control and state and federal > epidemiological units, and also to WHO and then it got into textbooks.... > > of course you will be right if you tell me *Aspirin* got into usage and > texbooks without any real empirical data, and I grant you that... I have > often said it in my lectures that if aspirin were to be patented now, it > will perhaps not get patented at all because of all the experiments that > the medical researchers and drug companies would have to do to prove the > efficacy and do a lot of toxicity assessment, and then if proven useful and > non toxic could it be patented as a generalized painkiller and blood- > thinner as its used currently. > > anyway > this debate can go on... > and it can be a lot of fun... > > but, i have to run > have a class to go to... > learning advanced math in my old age !!! > > and later in pm teaching basic photography to some youngsters and young at > heart.... > > [?][?][?] > bhalo theko > > Usha di > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Rahul Banerjee > <rahul.inda...@gmail.com>wrote: > >> ha ha its nice to be ticked off for being a fool but we have taken a few >> precautions. the water tank is sealed tight so that nothing can enter it >> apart from the water thrugh the pipe. and the pigeon was a temporary >> phenomenon as a cat got wise to its nesting there!!! secondly the >> composting pit is also watertight on the sides and bottom and a pipe takes >> the excess water down to ghe field below. thirdly i, my wife and son are >> hale and hearty without ever having fllen ill in the past decade since we >> are living in this house and when mh wife s d i get our regular checkup >> done all our parameters are normal. so ushadi there is no need to feel so >> sarcasti ally superior!!!! >> On Jun 15, 2013 12:11 PM, "Rakesh Biswas" <rakesh7bis...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Usha Di, I knew i might be setting off an empirical evidence vs >>> text-book knowledge (anecdotal evidence) debate. >>> >>> This is just to clarify that i am comfortable with both mindsets. To be >>> honest i tend to naturally veer toward supporting the more dominant current >>> paradigm and i like to think that i am constantly looking at ways to >>> simplify the empirical scientific approach such that it becomes a >>> collaborative endeavor involving humans at all levels. >>> >>> Good clean empirical evidence as i suggested earlier is difficult to >>> find and as Rahul would like to put it most empirical studies that are >>> generated currently are GIGO--garbage in and garbage out and this does >>> bring a bad name to the field and as you rightly pointed out well-funded >>> corporates are quick to cash in on this and continue on their environment >>> destruction spree. >>> >>> The right answer to them would not be name-calling but actually proving >>> our point with good clean empirical studies (hard work i agree but >>> unfortunately the only clean option). >>> >>> Rahul is an IIT engineer who left everything behind to work with the >>> Bhils toward establishing a grounded approach to environmental conservation >>> (read his life-struggles in the blog linked here: >>> http://anar-kali.blogspot.com). >>> >>> He perhaps realized (Rahul feel free to clarify) that he needed >>> empirical data to prove his point and he is currently doing a Phd to carry >>> his activism to the next level where it will not be bowled out by the >>> powers that be. >>> >>> regards, >>> >>> rakesh >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Ushadi Micromini < >>> microminipho...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Rakesh, you made me laugh... good and thanks... >>>> >>>> empirical data??? to me that's a pseudo-scientific // >>>> pseudo-intellectual word that sounds scientific and is capable of creating >>>> a smoke screen in real issues debate... like what the GMO companies are >>>> doing nowadays ... whenever the health hazards and complaints of farmers >>>> who handle or live near the pollens bearing the Bt gene etc are raised... >>>> they come up with a counter question: do you have any empirical data? >>>> >>>> ==== >>>> >>>> *I suggest for our case study in this video *.... i suggest you or >>>> your students/residents >>>> look up any fungal diseases of man and animal textbook for the torula >>>> and candida and aspergillus.... >>>> >>>> everything does not have to be a recent double blind study... that >>>> would be silly to keep repeating the same old same old... >>>> >>>> and indoor mold and its health hazard are well know, and good >>>> pulmonology text book will have a chapter or two.... its also in many books >>>> where the farmers' lung disorders are discussed, and silo workers.... etc >>>> etc.... allergenic diseases texbooks esp american publications will have a >>>> lot of info... >>>> >>>> If no such books are available where you are, then google scholar will >>>> surely help.... >>>> >>>> good luck >>>> >>>> usha di >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Rakesh Biswas < >>>> rakesh7bis...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks Balkar Ji, For noticing the other creeper that looks like >>>>> *QUISQUALIS >>>>> INDICA* or Rangoon Creeper. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks Usha Di, >>>>> >>>>> I am sharing your inputs with Rahul the care-taker of the house as >>>>> well as the director and producer of the video. I loved hearing the >>>>> historical anecdotes surrounding this tree. >>>>> >>>>> What you suggest in terms of health hazards are a possibility but >>>>> would be nice to see some empirical data on it (but again good clean data >>>>> is rarer than clean drinking water). >>>>> >>>>> :-) >>>>> >>>>> regards, >>>>> >>>>> rakesh >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 9:44 AM, Ushadi Micromini < >>>>> microminipho...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Rakesh: >>>>>> >>>>>> The pink flowers are Argyreia speciosa, a morning glory family/ >>>>>> convovulaceae family... called Vrudhha-daru (vrudhha-daruk by some), >>>>>> Drigha-vallari, in Sanskrit, and Samudra-shosh in gujarati, It has >>>>>> many >>>>>> uses in ayurveda, one that i remember the most is the wound healing by >>>>>> the >>>>>> leaves. >>>>>> >>>>>> Its leaves are very interesting, hairy and greyish white on the >>>>>> under-surface and smooth on top, exactly symmetrical heart shaped. In >>>>>> fields and village farms, the hairy side is used as is by pressing into >>>>>> skin wounds and bandaging the wound up. The hairs prompt coagulation and >>>>>> the wound heals nicely with second intention. . I have been told this >>>>>> use >>>>>> is ancient, in battle fields the army "vaidayaraj" always carried these >>>>>> leaves for the in battlefield first aid. Someone told us that it was >>>>>> used >>>>>> even when Alexander came fighting ...and wounded soldiers and country >>>>>> folks >>>>>> needed much attention for skin wounds.... apocryphal story, but I like >>>>>> it.... >>>>>> >>>>>> I have seen it growing in gardens, and in coastal areas in Gujarat, >>>>>> Bengal and Andhra... and they are vigorous climbers... >>>>>> >>>>>> Its seeds can be misused as hallucionogenic, and are considered >>>>>> potentially lethal esp for children... ( as are most morning glory seeds, >>>>>> lysergic acid content is quite high in some species) , this creeper >>>>>> produces tonnes of seeds, readily sprouted and grown in sandy well >>>>>> drained >>>>>> soils.... the seed production is prolific, so be careful... this video >>>>>> also shows many many seedpods, your friend that made the video can get >>>>>> you >>>>>> 20 or 30 seeds plant them... and try... keep us informed of your >>>>>> progress. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ======= >>>>>> *Overall the idea is appealing*, but this particular house's very >>>>>> nice folks have not given much thought to health of people residing or >>>>>> working in the building...... several problems are seen in this video... >>>>>> >>>>>> First is the vine itself, seeds are poisonous... (see above) >>>>>> >>>>>> Secondly, the PIGEON ROOSTING AND NESTING OVER THE WATER TANK IS A >>>>>> NO NO...... THEIR STOOL CONTAINS TORULOPSIS in addition to Crypto, >>>>>> aspergillous fumigatus and even candida.... and you know torulopsis >>>>>> pneumonia or meningitis is almost impossible to treat affectively... and >>>>>> crypto is another bad infection... sitting on top of drinking water >>>>>> tank >>>>>> is a major health hazard for the people in that house, because it will be >>>>>> in the drinking and bathing water... goes into gut and is inhaled as fine >>>>>> droplets when taking a shower, more so if it goes thru a >>>>>> heater/geyser..... >>>>>> >>>>>> Thirdly, composting the leaves on the roof top??? >>>>>> wow, it sure saves time for the jaruwala from taking the leaves to >>>>>> the garden below, but >>>>>> composting ?? you know its a breeding ground for creepy crawlies and >>>>>> all kinds of fungi... that would now colonize the cement in the wall and >>>>>> cause spores to infect the air indoors, creating a lung hazard.... >>>>>> infected/bad indoor air is cause for most of the lung ailments as you >>>>>> know.... >>>>>> >>>>>> *This is an example of from frying pan (of the waste lagoons/ponds >>>>>> in neighborhood) into the fire (of pegion droppings with tonnes of >>>>>> pathogens in the drinking water) ... *as children we used to call >>>>>> this UL maa-thi Chul ma.... ... >>>>>> >>>>>> *Any way thanks for sharing this video, nice to see how >>>>>> environmental pollution problem is worrying some people and they are at >>>>>> least trying to solve some problems the best they know how.*.. >>>>>> >>>>>> I like the idea of septic tank for the water waste problems and rain >>>>>> water harvesting to direct the flow underground to recharge the aquifer. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bhalo theko, >>>>>> usha di >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> === >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Balkar Singh >>>>>> <balkara...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Agree with Gurcharan Sir. One more creeper looks like *QUISQUALIS >>>>>>> INDICA* or Rangoon Creeper >>>>>>> *Thanks >>>>>>> * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Rakesh Biswas < >>>>>>> rakesh7bis...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks Gurcharan Ji, Somewhere in the middle of the video the woody >>>>>>>> stem of a large creeper covering almost the entire front of the two >>>>>>>> storied >>>>>>>> house is shown. Would that be Argyreia nervosa? I am also sharing this >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> Mr Rahul who recorded the video for further clarification. best, rakesh >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:12 AM, Gurcharan Singh < >>>>>>>> singh...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Even after seeing the video several times I could not capture the >>>>>>>>> name Tameshwar, nor is this name mentioned in connection with any >>>>>>>>> plant on >>>>>>>>> the net or scientific books I have, but if creeper in question is one >>>>>>>>> shown >>>>>>>>> in opening shots and then again towards the end in this video, it >>>>>>>>> should be >>>>>>>>> Argyreia nervosa (Burm.f.) Boj. (syn: A. speciosa Sweet), Elephant >>>>>>>>> creeper >>>>>>>>> in English and locally known as samandar-ka-pat (Hindi), Bichtarak >>>>>>>>> (Beng.), >>>>>>>>> Samundar soka (Mar.), Samundrapala, chandrapada (S. India). I hope I >>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>> right. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>>>>>> Retired Associate Professor >>>>>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>>>>>> http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ >>>>>>>>> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:12 AM, Rakesh Biswas < >>>>>>>>> rakesh7bis...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sorry for posting this query, which may not be part of a routine >>>>>>>>>> workflow of the 'Eflora' group. Although the query would be easier to >>>>>>>>>> answer for Eflora members in Madhya Pradesh i am hopeful anyone else >>>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>>> also offer useful inputs. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I came across this creeper known as Tameshwar in this video from >>>>>>>>>> Indore http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51cv_zO2brk and would be >>>>>>>>>> grateful to know its botanical name. Also if anyone from Madhya >>>>>>>>>> Pradesh >>>>>>>>>> (Bhopal) would be able to tell me if its seeds or saplings are >>>>>>>>>> available in >>>>>>>>>> any nursery in Bhopal it would be very useful. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> best, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> rakesh >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to indiantreepix+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>> indiantreepix@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "efloraofindia" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to indiantreepix+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to indiantreepix@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr Balkar Singh >>>>>>> Head, Deptt. of Botany and Biotechnology & >>>>>>> Horticulture Incharge >>>>>>> Arya P G College, Panipat >>>>>>> Haryana-132103 >>>>>>> 09416262964 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "efloraofindia" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to indiantreepix+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to indiantreepix@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Usha di >>>>>> ================================= >>>>>> =============================================== >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Usha di >>>> =========== >>>> >>> >>> > > > -- > Usha di > =========== > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to indiantreepix+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to indiantreepix@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
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