Dear Viplav Ji, I am sorry for limited available photographs in my thread of *Morinda*. Though I disagree that those limited images do not carry enough info to id my plant to species level, I accept your view that the heterostyly character of this genus rejects the idea of determining a species level id based only on its stamen character.
Thank you very much for spending some time for me. Regards surajit On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 11:07 AM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > > Dear Surajit ji, > > The occurrence of distylous flowers in the genus *Morinda* has been > documented in several sources including those quoted in my previous email. > Once we admit to the existence of heterostyly in this genus, don't you > think it negates the core basis upon which *M. exserta* was conceived and > separated from the rest i.e. exsertion of the stamens and inclusion of the > stigma? The possibility of the same occurring in the entire genus may have > been either discounted or overlooked at the time. > > *Morinda exserta* Roxb. was described in the second volume of Roxburgh's > Flora Indica, first published posthumously in 1824 (pp. 199-200 > <http://books.google.co.in/books?id=V1w-AAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=morinda%20exserta&f=false>). > Roxburgh would have recorded his observations much before his demise in > 1815. In the year 1866, fifty-one years after Roxburgh's passing, "Heterostyly > was first defined by Hildebrand (1866) as the presence of di- or > trimorphism in the length of the style and stamens between flowers on > separate plants of the same species. > <http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-8137.1981.tb02348.x/pdf> > " > > With the benefit of hindsight, we can sense the tenuous premise upon which *M. > exserta* was based, at a time when thorough investigation into the > phenomenon of heterostyly was decades away. > > It would be interesting to learn about any breakthrough involving the > plant in your thread > <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/indiantreepix/V7HGakB7kYQ/APFWz1ed2qMJ>. > I think I have already conveyed my reluctance-cum-inability to attempt an > identification of your individual plant from the limited available > photographs. > > Best wishes, Viplav > > PS: The quote on heterostyly in the 2nd para. has been sourced from the > journal New Phytologist, vol. 89, issue 4, p. 693, Dec. 1981. The PDF is > hyperlinked in the quoted text. > > El 22 de abril de 2015, 22:17, surajitkoley <[email protected]> > escribió: > >> >> Thank you very much VIplav Ji for this new angle - heterostyly. Very >> interesting and much probable solution of your two morphed population over >> there. But it doesn't explain my query. It doesn't explain stipule >> character. Neither it explains hair property of corolla, within as well as >> without. As I said the flowers of my species may be a little hairy, but not >> like what had been recorded in Cooke's Flora. Leaves are rather glabrous or >> pubescent, not tomentose (Ref. Cooke's flora) specially underside, in my >> species as far as I can make out examining my records. >> >> In short "heterostyly" doesn't explain if *Morinda tinctoria* var. >> *tomentosa* and *Morinda exserta* is same species or not. >> >> I said Bangladesh document doesn't sastisfy my records, in addition to >> what you have pointed out about the line drawing, the corolla size is >> smaller in that doc., style is longer than corolla tube. >> >> Thank you very much once again. >> >> Regards >> >> surajit >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 4:19 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> Thank you Radha ji & Surajit ji for your thoughts. I am also intrigued >>> by the reason behind different individuals of this tree bearing separate >>> kinds of flowers i.e. with 'exserted anthers - included stigma' and vice >>> versa. I have not come across these two different flower types/morphs on a >>> single individual. >>> >>> Based on the above, would it be correct to infer that this tree is a >>> distylous plant exhibiting heterostyly >>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterostyly>? >>> >>> In the description of the genus *Morinda* in Flora of China >>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=121192>, >>> the flowers are said to be "bisexual and distylous". >>> >>> Flora of China >>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=121192> >>> further states that "Morinda includes a notable range of breeding systems >>> (Johansson, Opera Bot. 122: 1-167. 1994), but most of the species are >>> apparently distylous, with the anthers and stigmas separated and their >>> positions reciprocal between the short-styled and long-styled form of the >>> same species; however, this biology has been sometimes overlooked." >>> >>> Best wishes, Viplav >>> >>> PS: In the paper on *Morinda* in Bangladesh, everything is exserted in >>> the line drawing depicting the flower of *M. pubescens* i.e. anthers as >>> well as stigma. I have not come across such a flower so far. >>> >>> El 21 de abril de 2015, 21:26, surajitkoley < >>> [email protected]> escribió: >>> >>>> >>>> I wonder Viplav Ji, if anybody ever examined those two version of >>>> trees, bearing different types of flowers in the said locality, a bit more >>>> closely! >>>> >>>> Does any version or even a single individual have two different types >>>> of flowers on the same body? If yes what is the percentage? Are those two >>>> types of flowers identical in other respect? >>>> >>>> If no, then they are likely to be two different taxa or var. >>>> >>>> It is interesting to note what Bangladesh >>>> <http://www.banglajol.info/index.php/BJB/article/download/9766/7250> >>>> think of related nomenclature. Please note that the flower description in >>>> that doc doesn't tally with my record. You may check if it tallies with >>>> yours. Also attached here what Haines recorded about *tomentosa*. >>>> >>>> Thank you >>>> Regards >>>> surajit >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 11:41 AM, [email protected] <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dear Surajit ji, >>>>> >>>>> It is difficult for me to say anything definitive from these >>>>> photographs alone. Another problem, as mentioned in my previous email to >>>>> Radha ji, is that there is substantial confusion surrounding the current >>>>> nomenclature & synonymy of *Morinda* spp. (including *M. exserta *Roxb >>>>> *.*). >>>>> >>>>> In my posts, I have used the name *Morinda coreia* var. *tomentosa* as >>>>> per the keys by RR Fernandez >>>>> <https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/83410cd801743ca3/08_Morinda_key_Fernandez.jpg?part=0.8&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHfmAvymogqKvW7zVddTOJt05S28mK4_Mr0jQVPWxf2n5DNr9akhVea9Q7w2dhbNACRYPnarBMPYXzMqaJ3OdGTbh9yw6h4G6tzQLq2zXZjG-VZhaA> >>>>> from >>>>> Mumbai. >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes, Viplav >>>>> >>>>> El 20 de abril de 2015, 22:26, surajitkoley < >>>>> [email protected]> escribió: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, Viplav Ji, here are the photographs, cropped from the highest >>>>>> resolution (not original) I have retained. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> surajit >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:24 PM, surajit koley < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you very much Viplav Ji for your kind feedback. Yes, the >>>>>>> stipules are different in your thread (i had noted that. My species is >>>>>>> *M. >>>>>>> exserta* Roxb., I think, which can be ascertained by its emarginate >>>>>>> stipules and shape of leaf-blade (please check the top most leaf in the >>>>>>> herb. - >>>>>>> http://www.br.fgov.be/RESEARCH/COLLECTIONS/HERBARIUM/detail.php?ID=487591). >>>>>>> I do not know if the corolla tube was glabrous inside & hairy outside. >>>>>>> Perhaps a little hairy as can be seen in the pictures I attach herewith. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Your species may well be different. I didn't mean that your species >>>>>>> was *M. exserta*. In fact I did note the stipule as you have >>>>>>> mentioned and also difference in leaf-lamina. I wanted your view on my >>>>>>> thread as it was left unattended and other eFI uploads of *M. >>>>>>> coreia* had flowers with inserted stamens. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you once again. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>> >>>>>>> surajit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 9:18 PM, [email protected] < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Surajit ji, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you very much for the link to your thread >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/indiantreepix/V7HGakB7kYQ/APFWz1ed2qMJ>. >>>>>>>> The stamen exsertion in your flowers is similar to what I've posted. >>>>>>>> But >>>>>>>> the stipules in your photographs appear to be larger, roundish & >>>>>>>> persistent, quite unlike the small (c. 4 mm) triangular stipule >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/ZV8KoQkdK6M> >>>>>>>> seen >>>>>>>> by me which is caducous. In the flowers I've posted, the corolla >>>>>>>> tube is glabrous on the inside and hairy on the outer surface >>>>>>>> <https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/83410cd801743ca3/07_Morinda%20coreia%20var.%20tomentosa_flower.jpg?part=0.7&view=1&vt=ANaJVrFI-jRuhcmPsviwaDnfaYHTJ_SyDei2CS8KWHUXoXC-UwlObWFoDIn4Es8NT2fXP7dSj2Wy0neBO-ny1onS07yow5SLQ97uvzHARoh8ntwlnTqJp-Y>; >>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>> unable to ascertain the same in your photographs. It would be >>>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>>> also to see the fruits of your plant if possible. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best wishes, Viplav >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> El 20 de abril de 2015, 7:05, surajitkoley < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> escribió: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> VIplab Ji, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Can you please take a look at my thread >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/indiantreepix/V7HGakB7kYQ/APFWz1ed2qMJ> >>>>>>>>> and give your view? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thank you >>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>> surajit >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sunday, 19 April 2015 10:41:48 UTC+5:30, Viplav Gangar wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sharing some photographs of the buds and the flowers of *Morinda >>>>>>>>>> coreia* var. *tomentosa*. The flowers are usually 5-merous; have >>>>>>>>>> also attached some instances of variable merosity in the flowers of >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> tree (4-merous & 6-merous). The corolla tube is glabrous on the >>>>>>>>>> inside and >>>>>>>>>> hairy on the outer surface as seen in the last picture. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This tree is often referred to as *Morinda pubescens* Sm. The >>>>>>>>>> genus *Morinda* in Mumbai was revised by RR Fernandez who >>>>>>>>>> published a new combination - *Morinda coreia* Buch.-Ham. var. >>>>>>>>>> *tomentosa* (Hook.f.) R.R.Fernandez. Have attached the key by >>>>>>>>>> Fernandez from his book 'Trees of Mumbai (Bombay)', pp. 173-174, >>>>>>>>>> Scientific >>>>>>>>>> Publishers, 1999. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In Cooke's Flora, the anthers are said to be included within the >>>>>>>>>> corolla tube as depicted in Navendu ji's photographs on >>>>>>>>>> flowersofindia.net >>>>>>>>>> <http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Indian%20Mulberry.html>. >>>>>>>>>> But the anthers are clearly exserted in the trees that I have come >>>>>>>>>> across >>>>>>>>>> in Madh. In the eflora archives, I found some photographs of the >>>>>>>>>> flowers of *M. >>>>>>>>>> pubescens* bearing exserted stamens & anthers (posted by Mohina >>>>>>>>>> ji fr. Alibag >>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/indiantreepix/qtNY1MByXak> >>>>>>>>>> & Dinesh ji fr. SGNP in Mumbai >>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topicsearchin/indiantreepix/Morinda$20AND$20pubescens$20AND$20Sm./indiantreepix/mOj5Q4dogw8>). >>>>>>>>>> The flower image of *M. pubescens* in 'The Trees of Mumbai' by >>>>>>>>>> M. Almeida & N. Chaturvedi (p. 20) as well as in Shrikant ji's >>>>>>>>>> 'Trees of >>>>>>>>>> Pune' (p. 98) also depicts exserted anthers. Would appreciate any >>>>>>>>>> information / comments on this. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Am sending the photographs of the leaves, fruit, and bark in >>>>>>>>>> separate emails. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Photographed on Madh Hill (North Mumbai) in March 2015. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best wishes, Viplav >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send an email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
