Thanks a lot, Gurinder ji On 24 Jan 2017 9:07 p.m., "gurinder goraya" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dears, > > > Kindly see the trailing mail containing details of the photographs. I am > resending slightly compressed photographs as the high resolution images did > not get uploaded. > > > Regards, > > > Dr. G S Goraya, IFS > Deputy Director General (Research), > Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education, > New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006. > (Uttarakhand, India) > Tel. (+91-941-802-5036) > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* gurinder goraya <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 24, 2017 8:54 PM > *To:* Pankaj Kumar; efloraofindia; J. M. Garg; C CHADWELL > *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu > lato in HP & Uttarakhand > > > Dears, > > > Find attached four more photographs of *Dactylorhiza hatageria* and > *Gymnadenia > orchidis* showing (a) common habitat; (b) freshly dug tubers of *Dactylorhiza > hatageria*; (c) freshly dug tubers of *Gymnadenia orchidis*; and (d) > comparative image of tubers of both these species. > > > The estimated consumption of Dactylorhiza tubers I have shared with you in > my previous mail is based on dry weight only. I don't have dried samples of > tubers of either of these species here with me. However, I'll get the > average weight of dried tubers soon. > > > Regards, > > > Dr. G S Goraya, IFS > Deputy Director General (Research), > Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education, > New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006. > (Uttarakhand, India) > Tel. (+91-941-802-5036) > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* C CHADWELL <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Saturday, January 21, 2017 3:33 AM > *To:* gurinder goraya; Pankaj Kumar; efloraofindia; J. M. Garg > *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu > lato in HP & Uttarakhand > > Nice photos which clearly differentiate between the two orchids. > > I would welcome viewing the images of the orchids. > > Having spent quite a bit of time examining pressed specimens in herbaria > and Himalayan plants > at the fruiting stage in the wild, think I may well soon be able to > differentiate between them at the > non-flowering stage. > > Being able to have good close-up images to compare, which digital cameras > permit, also has the > potential to transform things. > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > Chris Chadwell - shpa.org.uk <http://www.shpa.org.uk/> > www.shpa.org.uk > Chris Chadwell - Freelance Lecturer, Botanist, Himalaya Specialist, Travel > and Plant Photographer, Freelance photo-journalist > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* gurinder goraya <[email protected]> > *To:* Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]>; C CHADWELL < > [email protected]>; efloraofindia < > [email protected]>; J. M. Garg <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Thursday, 19 January 2017, 0:59 > *Subject:* Fw: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu > lato in HP & Uttarakhand > > Dears, > > In continuation of my mail of yesterday, I attach below high > resolution images of plants I think are of Dactylorhiza hatageria and > Gymnadenia orchidis, clicked from the same location and same day in GHNP, > Kullu in Himachal Pradesh. I also dug up tubers of these two orchids and > noted that with careful examination it is possible to tell one from the > other. I'll share photographs of the tubers also as soon as I am able to > locate these. > > Kindly validate. > > Regards, > > Dr. G S Goraya, IFS > Deputy Director General (Research), > Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education, > New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006. > (Uttarakhand, India) > Tel. (+91-941-802-5036) > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* gurinder goraya <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 18, 2017 7:23 AM > *To:* Pankaj Kumar; C CHADWELL > *Cc:* J.M. Garg; efloraofindia > *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu > lato in HP & Uttarakhand > > Dears, > > May I join you all in this very interesting and meaningful debate on > *Dactylorhiza > hatageria* and *Gymnadenia orchisdis*. > > During the course of our field visits to the Great Himalayan National Park > in Himachal Pradesh, we have seen both these species growing together at > altitude of about 3500 m asl. Had we not stopped for savouring the beauty > of these spikes with many hues of pink emerging from the alpine grass mat > and for clicking their pictures, we would have passed these as *Dactylorhiza > hatageria* only. It was only close interaction with these that we could > notice occurrence of *Gymnadenia orchidis* mixed with that of > *Dactylorhiza*. None of the local people accompanying our group as > porters and routinely making wild collection of medicinal herbs was able to > differentiate between the two and were collecting both as 'Salam Panja'. I > have NOT noticed *Gymnadenia orchidis* from Lahaul valley yet, even as > have seen *Dactylorhiza hatageria* in may grasslands, especially along > small water channels criss crossing these grasslands. > > I have been regularly interacting with local people in Himachal > Pradesh about the expanse of occurrence of *Dactylorhiza hatageria* as > part of our continuous efforts to understand the wild harvest of the > species. I have recently completed a national study to assess demand of > medicinal plants in India. An annual consumption of more than 10 metric ton > of the entity traded as 'salam panja' (*Dactylorhiza hatageria*) has been > estimated based on consumption data collected from the domestic herbal > industry and traders. A part of this annual need (about 6 metric ton) is > being met from 'Salam Panja' raw drug received as LoC trade. The remaining > matching annual quantity is being collected from the wild in J&K, Himachal > Pradesh, and Uttarakhand with some quantity in trade traced back > to Arunachal Pradesh. Obviously what is being traded as 'salam panja' is a > mix of species. > > Coming back to the status in the wild, a severe depletion in the wild > populations of *Dactylorhiza hatageria* has been reported in Himachal > Pradesh with regeneration not matching with the annual removals of its > tubers. At many places the habitat of the species - grass lands with good > flow of water in mini channels - has severely dwindled. The species has > been assessed as of 'conservation concern' and some efforts > towards establishing its nursery and plantation techniques have been > initiated, with no great success reported till now. Any idea about how to > propagate the species? > > I'll locate photographs of both these species clicked during my GHNP visit > and share with you in a day or two. > > Regards, > > Dr. G S Goraya, IFS > Deputy Director General (Research), > Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education, > New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006. > (Uttarakhand, India) > Tel. (+91-941-802-5036) > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > on behalf of Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 18, 2017 6:33 AM > *To:* C CHADWELL > *Cc:* J.M. Garg; efloraofindia > *Subject:* [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in > HP & Uttarakhand > > Dear Sir > "This means that it is legitimate for amchis (doctors of traditional > Tibetan Medicine in Bhutan are known as dungtshos) long resident in Ladakh > AND those based a MEN-TSEE-KHANG to collect material for herbal > formulations - provided it carried out in a responsible fashion." > > No that doesn't make it legitimate for amchis to collect. According to > Indian laws, they (indian tribals) have the right to collect from their > area. Not all Amchis are native indian tribes. Many of them are refugees > from Tibet who have limited rights. Please also remember that many of these > amchis dont collect plants by themselves, but they hire locals or even > outsiders to supply plants to them. How much they collect depends on how > much money they want to earn. > > Infact when the red data book of Indian plants was published in 1986, > Dactylorhiza hatagirea was assessed to be Critically Endangered but many > disagreed to it including myself. No doubt there has been immense > collection of it but as I said above a particular elevation it is common as > per my personal observation, but may be it was more common decades ago. > > Yes Amchis are accepted in Indian Traditional Medicine but I believe many > plants are being sold out of India legally or illegally. For example plants > like Cordyceps are collected in India but used mainly in Chinese > Traditional medicine. Never heard of it being used in India. So you can see > the violation of Indian law here. Recently we examined tubers from Hong > Kong market and through barcoding we found out that they were Gymnadenia > orchidis although the bag was labelled as Dactylorhiza. You will be shocked > that in the name of deer femur, we have seen dog femur being sold in > Chinese traditional medicine shop. > > I just feel that they adulterate to make more and easy money or just that > they dont know how to differentiate as the tubers are very similar. > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 8:23 AM, C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet. > com> wrote: > > My understanding is that 'Tibetan' Medicine has been officially > adopted/sanctioned as a health-care > system in India. > > This means that it is legitimate for amchis (doctors of traditional > Tibetan Medicine in Bhutan are known > as dungtshos) long resident in Ladakh AND those based a MEN-TSEE-KHANG to > collect material for > herbal formulations - provided it carried out in a responsible fashion. > > This would include collection of Dactylorhiza hatagirea (and presumably > D.kafiriana) in Ladakh and Himachal Pradesh > and Gymnadenia orchidis (if it is present) which are likely to be > collected as "dbang-lag". > > As this has been going on for CENTURIES and D.hatagirea was described in > 'Flowers of the Himalaya' > and by Stewart as "common" (and the number of amchis operating in Ladakh, > much reduced in recent > decades) THERE IS NOTHING to suggest that this species is SERIOUSLY > Endangered in this part of > the Himalaya at least. UNLESS THERE HAS BEEN A MASSIVE INCREASE IN > CONSUMPTION WITHIN > 'INDIAN' MEDICINE? > > I assume that amchis in places like Ladakh have collected RESPONSIBLY by > NOT remove colonies/ > populations of this orchid in their entirety. Since the tubers (roots) are > harvested, this involves > digging up the whole plant. IF collection takes place AFTER seed has > been dispersed, this is less bad. > > *It would be INFORMATIVE if PROPER SURVEYS OF TYPICAL HABITAT FOR THIS > ORCHID HAVE * > *BEEN UNDERTAKEN IN LADAKH & LAHOUL to SCIENTIFICALLY ASSESS levels of > threat to* > *wild populations. * > > *Flora of Lahaul-Spiti STATES that "THE large scale exploitation MAY lead > to extinction from the* > *natural habitat" but I ask, what is the ACTUAL EVIDENCE, that this orchid > is being collected on a* > *LARGE scale? I do not know the answer to this nor does ANYONE.* > > *The image taken for me showing what are likely to be Dactylorhiza > hatagirea tubers being dried was* > *in Lahoul. The collectors (presumably operating illegally) were not > local men.* > > *Yes, it is right and proper to express concerns and one way would surely > be to monitor QUANTITY* > *of dried tubers being purchased. * > > *But UNLESS there is evidence to INCREASED demand/usage cf. say the > 1970s/1980s, when D.hatagirea* > *was considered as "common" in suitable habitats (and thus collection of > such quantities appeared * > *sustainable). IF this is the case then CLAIMS of risk of extinction > have been EXAGGERATED.* > > *I KNOW from personal experience "in the Himalaya" that some species which > are CLAIMED to be* > *'rare and endangered' are NO SUCH THING.* > > *Surely, FINITE, resources for a CONSERVATION should be directed towards > those species GENUINELY* > *rare.* > > *Just because a plant is used for medicinal purposes does NOT > automatically mean it is CRITICALLY* > *ENDANGERED (which means it is about to become extinct).* > > *CRYING WOLF too often, will, in time cause GREAT harm.* > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]> > *To:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]> > *Cc:* efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com > <[email protected]>>; C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet. > com <[email protected]>> > *Sent:* Monday, 16 January 2017, 13:10 > *Subject:* Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand > > Just forgot to mention that yes, Amchis are around in himalayan region, > some as a part of tibetan refugee and some illegal. But please remember > that Dactylorhiza hatagirea atleast is also used in Indian traditional > medicine. > Pankaj > > > On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 9:06 PM, Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Dear Sir > > 1. As I see all pink flowers in this thread belong to Dactylorhiza > hatagirea. The tubers if collected from this plant then its ok they too are > Dactylorhiza. > > 2.The greenish white flower pic at the end is not clear but does look like > Dactylorhiza viridis (=Coeloglossum viride). If you have more pics I can > check, because in this particular pic, I cant get any glimpse of the > labellum. Just for your information Mr. Kishan Lal passed away recently. He > was an engineer by profession and a keen collector. Most of his orchids > were either identified by Jeewan and myself till 2008 (following which I > had cut off my connections with him).or by BSI. D. viridis colour varies > from pale green to green to even red. This is one species extremely > widespread and hence such variations are obvious. > > Thanks and regards > Pankaj > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 12:34 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: > > Thanks a lot, Chadwell ji. > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "C CHADWELL" <[email protected] om > <[email protected]>> > Date: 16 Jan 2017 5:59 a.m. > Subject: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand > To: "J.M. Garg" <[email protected]> > Cc: > > Aswal & Mehrotra in 'Flora of Lahaul-Spiti' (1999) found D.hatagirea to be > common in grassy meadows on slopes > at Khoksar. > > They observed that the tubers are an important ingredient of many > Ayurvedic and Unani preparations and therefore > collected by the local people for sale. > > Bor's specimen at Dehra Dun which had been identified as A.maculata is in > fact D.hatagirea. A.maculata being a > European species which does not occur in India. The plant reported by > Aitchison in 1868 as A.maculata is probably > A.hatagirea. > > Koelz (1979) found an attractive rose-coloured orchid common in the > meadows of Lahaul, known in Tibetan as 'Wanglak' ( > hand-shaped root) used by local doctors of Tibetan Medicine. This was > only partially identified as Habernaria sp. Was this > Gymnadenia orchidis or perhaps Dactylorhiza (and if so, D.hatagirea or > D.kafiriana)? > > Collet in 'Flora Simlensis' (1921) also got it wrong (presumably following > FBI) finding what he thought was Orchis latifolia > which he said was the 'Marsh Orchis' of Britain in wet ground at Huttoo. > Flower colour dull purple, the lip darker spotted. > > 'The Valley of Flowers' book lists Orchis latifolia (now Dactylorhiza > hatagirea) and Orchis chusua (now Ponerorchis chusua). > > I am attaching 6 images: > > 1. A string of Dactylorhiza tubers having been illegally collected in > H.P.; photographed on my behalf - I don't expect the > Indian collectors (they were not local men) gathered them in a responsible > way (which I believe amchis - local doctors of > traditional medicine do). > > 2-4. Images taken by Krishan Lal at Koksar, Lahoul, H.P. of what he > thought was D.hatagirea > > 5. Image of what he thought was Dactylorhiza viride - which Stewart listed > as Coleloglossum viride (in the UK this > plant is known as the 'Frog Orchid' - the flowers MOSTLY being green. > Just taking a quick look, Krishan's image does > not fit but we have members with much greater familiarity with > Orchidaceae, who can comment more authoritatively. > > 6. Another image of what he thought was Dactylorhiza viride - which > Stewart listed as Coeloglossum viride (in the UK this > plant is known as the 'Frog Orchid' - the flowers MOSTLY being green. > This seems more promising. Perhaps Krishan made > a labelling error (which he did from time-to-time). > > Just supposing Krishan photos from Gulaba were taken where both > Dactylorhiza hatagirea and Coeloglossum viride grew together, > the POSSIBILITY of hybrids exists. *In the UK, C.viride is known to > hybridise with a number of Dactylorhiza species.....* > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > > -- > ****************************** ****************************** > ****************************** **************************** > *Pankaj Kumar*, Ph.D. > *IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia* > > *Office*: > > Conservation Officer > > Orchid Conservation Section > > Flora Conservation Department > > Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation > Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. > > *Residence*: > House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo Tsuen > Lam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. > *email*: [email protected]; [email protected] > *Phone*: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 > (mobile); *Fax*: +852 2483 7194 > > > > > -- > ****************************** ****************************** > ****************************** **************************** > *Pankaj Kumar*, Ph.D. > *IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia* > > *Office*: > > Conservation Officer > > Orchid Conservation Section > > Flora Conservation Department > > Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation > Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. > > *Residence*: > House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo Tsuen > Lam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. > *email*: [email protected]; [email protected] > *Phone*: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 > (mobile); *Fax*: +852 2483 7194 > > > > > > > -- > ************************************************************ > ********************************************************** > *Pankaj Kumar*, Ph.D. > *IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia* > > *Office*: > > Conservation Officer > > Orchid Conservation Section > > Flora Conservation Department > > Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation > Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. > > *Residence*: > House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo Tsuen > Lam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. > *email*: [email protected]; [email protected] > *Phone*: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 > (mobile); *Fax*: +852 2483 7194 > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "efloraofindia" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send an email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
