I feel along with calyx, fruiting calyx completely covering the capsule in *Torenia godefroyi* is very important. It is very very difficult to judge only based on winged calyx. -- With regards, J. M. Garg
On Sat, 8 Oct, 2022, 9:05 pm Tabish, <[email protected]> wrote: > Let me summarize my view here: > > - Saldanha (1966) named *Torenia lindernioides* which, according to > his paper, is endemic to the Western Ghats, and differs from *Torenia > crustacea* in having a prominently winged calyx. > - Prasad, Roy, Sunojkumar (2017) re-established *Torenia godefroyi,* > and put *Torenia lindernioides* as its synonym. *Torenia godefroyi* > was separated from *Torenia crustacea* in having a prominently winged > calyx, among other characters. *Torenia godefroyi *was earlier known > only from Indo-China region (SE Asia). So, according to this paper, the > revised distribution of *Torenia godefroyi* is Indo-China region and > Western Ghats. > - So my question is, where is this *Torenia godefroyi* from Western > Ghats with prominently winged calyx? Don't we have any image of it? Or are > we misidentifying some of its images as > *Torenia crustacea? * > > I think some thinking is required on it, instead of this rapid > discussion. > Tabish > ------------------------------------------- > <http://www.flowersofindia.net>www.flowersofindia.net > The waterhole of flower lovers > > > On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 8:09 PM J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi, Dinesh ji, >> As all has now been identified as Lindernia crustacea >> <https://efloraofindia.com/2011/03/12/lindernia-crustacea/>, it has to >> be the same i.e. with the winged calyx. >> >> On Sat, 8 Oct 2022 at 19:56, Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Garg ji, when I go through photographs posted in SK 3258 24 December >>> 2021 <https://groups.google.com/g/indiantreepix/c/xoQAkxPsgTg> that >>> show calyx, they do not seem to me as "distinctly winged" or ribbed. They >>> look to me rather as separated sepals. That is how I perceive. >>> Regards. >>> Dinesh >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 7:23 PM J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, Dinesh ji, >>>> How do you say "All of the other observations at eFI related to >>>> Lindernia crustacea do not have distinctly winged calyx" ? >>>> I feel otherwise that most of the observations at eFI related to >>>> Lindernia crustacea also have distinctly winged calyx. >>>> Pl. see one e.g. SK 3258 24 December 2021 >>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/indiantreepix/c/xoQAkxPsgTg> >>>> >>>> On Sat, 8 Oct 2022 at 19:19, Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Tabish, I agree with you on the distinctly winged calyx, and >>>>> therefore rushed to upload my observation in iNaturalist. >>>>> But there the suggested ID is not agreed upon. I have given the link >>>>> to this discussion. >>>>> >>>>> All of the other observations at eFI related to Lindernia crustacea do >>>>> not have distinctly winged calyx and therefore will remain as Lindernia >>>>> crustacea. >>>>> I have sent a personal mail to Aaratrik Pal, requesting him to give >>>>> his views regarding this discussion. >>>>> >>>>> Regards. >>>>> Dinesh >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 7:10 PM Tabish <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Dinesh, >>>>>> I think there is some confusion here. T. godefroyi is separated >>>>>> from T. crustacea one some characteristics, one of which is the >>>>>> distinctly >>>>>> winged calyx. I am only saying that this plant should not be T. crustacea >>>>>> as it shows winged calyx. If T. lindernioides is synonymous with T. >>>>>> godefroy, it may be so, I don't know - I don't have any description, >>>>>> pics, >>>>>> herbarium pics of T. godefroy to compare with. >>>>>> Tabish >>>>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>>>> <http://www.flowersofindia.net>www.flowersofindia.net >>>>>> The waterhole of flower lovers >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 6:34 PM Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> At iNaturalist, I suggested ID of *Torenia lindernioides* >>>>>>> C.J.Saldanha for two of my observations: 1) of MIDC Andheri >>>>>>> <https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/137952066>, and 2) of Nagla >>>>>>> forest <https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/72003993>. >>>>>>> Aaratrik Pal, M.Sc., University of North Bengal, Department of >>>>>>> Botany disagrees with the ID, and asserts on *Torenia crustacea* >>>>>>> (L.) Cham. & Schltdl. >>>>>>> He says: >>>>>>> "POWO is updating daily, and the above information about *T. >>>>>>> godefroyi* have not been updated yet. Both are synonymous and is >>>>>>> also distributed in West Bengal." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Aaratrik Pal <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Aaratrik-Pal> >>>>>>> has written many articles related to *Torenia* spp. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards. >>>>>>> Dinesh. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 2:29 PM Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> By now, I have made changes to my notes in flickr. >>>>>>>> As far as the characteristic of "distinctly winged calyx" goes, I >>>>>>>> can see it in my posted plants. >>>>>>>> In the first photo, we do see a capsule in the centre; however the >>>>>>>> sepals are not completely enclosing the mature capsule. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In Garg ji's listed posts, the sepals seem to be more blunt than >>>>>>>> distinctly winged ... as such would resolve to *Lindernia >>>>>>>> crustacea*. I am not good at this assertion. So I hope that Sunoj >>>>>>>> ji will provide his comments soon and help resolve the ID. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards. >>>>>>>> Dinesh >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 11:40 AM J.M. Garg <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> However, I am not satisfied with the id as *Torenia godefroyi* or >>>>>>>>> *Torenia >>>>>>>>> lindernioides *(with restricted range in Western Ghats and >>>>>>>>> Cambodia). >>>>>>>>> What about other observations from other areas at Lindernia >>>>>>>>> crustacea >>>>>>>>> <https://efloraofindia.com/2011/03/12/lindernia-crustacea/> like >>>>>>>>> SK 3258 24 December 2021 >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/indiantreepix/c/xoQAkxPsgTg> >>>>>>>>> Lindernia sp. (1) from Hooghly 15/8/12 SK-1 >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/indiantreepix/Huo2W3tvDdU> >>>>>>>>> Lindernia sp. (2) from Hooghly 15/8/12 SK-2 >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/indiantreepix/pAcb_GQuLTE> >>>>>>>>> Lindernia crustacea (L.) F.Muel collected from Kamrup district >>>>>>>>> (Metro), Assam >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/KU3HUbO0DnM> >>>>>>>>> Scrophulariaceae Fortnight: Lindernia crustacea from Kaithal- NS 29 >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/lSYABMJR-XI> >>>>>>>>> Scrophulariaceae Fortnight: a guest on Lindernia crustacea (L.) >>>>>>>>> F.Muell. : sk03 >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/aobL5G85kmA> >>>>>>>>> PM1 22-09-2017 Id confirmation from chandigarh. Is it Lindernia >>>>>>>>> crustacea? >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/z5RCCxai7Uc> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Torenia thouarsii (Cham. & Schltdl.) Kuntze (accepted name) ?? >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/zMNeXJM7Bdc> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> for id. request. BRS 522 >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/indiantreepix/eWWg23fxCqM> >>>>>>>>> Torenia crustacea (L.) Cham. & Schltdl. >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/PAKGAtwmPGI> >>>>>>>>> Validation of Lindernia >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/umPk1Q5X8-8> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Herb for ID from Jim-Corbett Uttarakhand-GS10032022-2 >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/indiantreepix/c/anOKvYwqBec> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In view of the above observations, I feel, we follow the broader >>>>>>>>> circumspection with all these observations as Lindernia crustacea >>>>>>>>> <https://efloraofindia.com/2011/03/12/lindernia-crustacea/> (as >>>>>>>>> we are following now). >>>>>>>>> In view Dinesh ji's plant and other similar observations from >>>>>>>>> Western Ghats may also be retained as Lindernia crustacea >>>>>>>>> <https://efloraofindia.com/2011/03/12/lindernia-crustacea/> only. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Oct 2022 at 22:00, Tabish <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just to point out that POWO treats* Torenia godefroyi* and* >>>>>>>>>> Torenia lindernioides *as distinct species, with *Torenia >>>>>>>>>> godefroyi* confied to Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, and >>>>>>>>>> *Torenia >>>>>>>>>> lindernioides *confined to the Western Ghats. >>>>>>>>>> Tabish >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>> <http://www.flowersofindia.net>www.flowersofindia.net >>>>>>>>>> The waterhole of flower lovers >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 7, 2022 at 11:35 AM J.M. Garg <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think Sunoj ji may finally resolve this issue being an author >>>>>>>>>>> of 'Re-establishment of the overlooked species Torenia >>>>>>>>>>> godefroyi (Linderniaceae), and notes on the identity of T. >>>>>>>>>>> lindernioides >>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312558634_Re-establishment_of_the_overlooked_species_Torenia_godefroyi_Linderniaceae_and_notes_on_the_identity_of_T_lindernioides>' >>>>>>>>>>> (I am unable to get a hand on it from the net) >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks a lot, Tabish ji, for the inputs. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message --------- >>>>>>>>>>> From: Tabish <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2022 at 09:29 >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [efloraofindia:434054] Re: Scrophulariaceae fortnight >>>>>>>>>>> :: Lindernia crustacea at Andheri :: DV06 >>>>>>>>>>> To: eFloraofIndia <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This plant, with distinctly winged calyx, should be *Torenia >>>>>>>>>>> lindernioides* which is endemic to Western Ghats. Please have a >>>>>>>>>>> look at the attached paper. It is closely similar to *Torenia >>>>>>>>>>> crustacea* (Syn: *Lindernia crustacea*) which has unwinged >>>>>>>>>>> calyx. >>>>>>>>>>> According to the paper: >>>>>>>>>>> "Torenia lindernioides has a distinctly winged calyx which >>>>>>>>>>> completely encloses the mature capsule. The capsule is elongated, >>>>>>>>>>> lelliptic >>>>>>>>>>> in outline and narrowed at the top. Lindernia crustacea, however, >>>>>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>>>>> sepals that are, at most, slightly thickened in the middle and >>>>>>>>>>> never invest >>>>>>>>>>> the capsule completely." >>>>>>>>>>> Tabish >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, August 16, 2013 at 5:12:18 AM UTC+5:30 Dinesh Valke >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Scrophulariaceae fortnight >>>>>>>>>>>> dog flower family >>>>>>>>>>>> *Lindernia crustacea* (L.) F. Muell. ... also placed in: >>>>>>>>>>>> Linderniaceae Plantaginaceae Veronicaceae >>>>>>>>>>>> at MIDC Andheri on 24 AUG 07 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> [image: Urikusa (in Japanese)] >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdinesh_valke%2F1224907860%2F&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFrqEzc7DxIHJEZQx1njUX_pZEE1_tb5uA> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> [image: Fua Lanumoana (in Samoan)] >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdinesh_valke%2F1224061657%2F&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFrqEzdyHN9liuka8KQKrl3l8qM__GKBrg> >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards. >>>>>>>>>>>> Dinesh >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "eFloraofIndia" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/373ac98b-df9a-4a8f-8799-d45ab3d6eb4bn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/373ac98b-df9a-4a8f-8799-d45ab3d6eb4bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> With regards, >>>>>>>>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> With regards, >>>>>>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> With regards, >>>> J.M.Garg >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> With regards, >> J.M.Garg >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "eFloraofIndia" group. 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