Though we have still to find the reason for ambiguity of Morinda pubescens, the reason for rejection of M. tinctotoria has been found from the Trees of Mumbai by R R Fernandez, 1999.
The reason why M. tinctoria Roxb. can't be maintained is because it is a later homonym of M. tinctoria Noronha, which was published much earlier in 1790 (is a different species considered as synonym of M. citrifolia L.) It also turns out that although M. tomentosa Heyne ex Roth is cited as synonym in FBI, apparantly Hooker's variety tomentosa ( renamed M. coreia var. tomentosa (Hook.f.) R R Fernandez) and species M. tomentosa Heyne ex Roth (now considered a synonym of M. citrifolia L.) are two different taxa. Perhaps this key from Trees of Mumbai, kindly supplied by Viplav ji should help https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix/browse_thread/thread/7c0dbba82a0028ec/5ae4a8efc31cd658?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=Trees+of+Mumbai#5ae4a8efc31cd658 -- Dr. Gurcharan Singh Retired Associate Professor SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 7:42 PM, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks a lot Dinesh ji > That relieves me a lot > > > -- > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > Retired Associate Professor > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Dinesh Valke <dinesh.va...@gmail.com>wrote: > >> ... your thorough explanation thoroughly convinces me Gurcharan ji ... >> many many thanks. >> >> >> Well about HS ... I just ignore his unethical posts ... makes it easier to >> give justice to all other posts. >> Am sure he will mend himself; presently a hard nut to crack. >> >> There are multiple issues with him in my opinion, in this order: >> 1) bad Englsh ... especially being Alfred >> 2) ill knowledge OR little knowledge ... read: grey in certain area of his >> own subject. >> 3) bad manners (expressions) >> 4) this is a biased opinion: he belongs to Almeida's camp ... by now, have >> got a feeling that all those who are influenced by Almeida two common >> points: >> ... a) have unorthodox views of their own subject >> ... b) consider themselves correct ... and others wrong. >> >> Until present his contribution to the group (my thought) is zero. >> >> >> Regards. >> Dinesh >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> Dinesh ji >>> M. tinctoria won't be lost all information associated with this will now >>> be known under M. coreia Benth. It won't make any difference at atleast >>> after some time. There was a lot of hue and cry when some one discovered >>> that correct name for common wheat won't be Triticum aestivum, and some more >>> difficult name Lycopersicon lycopersicum will have to be used for tomato. >>> Luckily this made taxonomists to relent to the long demand of declaring >>> common species names as conserved names (Nomina conservanda, which would not >>> be replaced by an earlier name) and Triticum aestivum and Lycopersicon >>> esculentum were declared as conserved names in 1986. I had been teaching >>> this to my students for nearly twenty years, and then found one day that >>> correct name of tomato is Solanum lycopersicum, as originally used by >>> Linnaeus. Conservation won't work across genera. We have to live with this, >>> the only thing to find is justification for this. We were trying to find >>> justifications for names in Morinda. >>> And yes, how to tackle this H S? He seems to be giving his decisions >>> (rather than opinion), and seems to contradict sometimes even without a >>> reason. Let us hope he improves. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>> Retired Associate Professor >>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>> >>> >>> On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Dinesh Valke <dinesh.va...@gmail.com>wrote: >>> >>>> Gurcharan ji, ... please forgive my naivety* ...* but few of my >>>> thoughts * >>>> >>>> M. tinctoria* seems to have got lost in transit of resolving species of >>>> *Morinda* >>>> >>>> If regional scripture(s) / document(s) have entries of these *MORINDA*s >>>> as separate species, then there must be some logic that our ancestors had >>>> applied to differentiate them. >>>> In event of taxonomical rationalization (or some process not known to >>>> me), some of the species may lose / may have lost their entities. >>>> >>>> *M. tinctoria* finds itself in many dictionaries including Sanskrit >>>> (may be found in other documents / literature). >>>> Of course, it is quite understandable that the prevalent botanical names >>>> find entries in such texts, and most of the times, the authors are unaware >>>> of synonymy. >>>> >>>> It leaves me wondering if such lost species ever have the chance of >>>> regaining their status during revisions. >>>> >>>> >>>> Please respond at your leisure; these are my personal thoughts, sent in >>>> personal mail, too subjective to be put across to the group. >>>> >>>> Regards. >>>> Dinesh >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 2:00 PM, H S <hemsan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Sirji >>>>> every thing is in mess if you see the work done by Kew Plant List in >>>>> case of Morinda.. >>>>> >>>>> How can M. tomentosa can be syn. of M. citrifolia which has nothing to >>>>> do with tomentose... i feel its a syn. of M. pubescens rather M. >>>>> citrifolia. >>>>> >>>>> we need to dig out original descriptions given by original authors.. >>>>> >>>>> i feel Morinda tinctoria and M. pubescens are two distnct plant... >>>>> here is nothing to do with M. citrifolia as it is exotic.. planted >>>>> only in gardens... or for NONI... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 5/27/11, Dinesh Valke <dinesh.va...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> > Many thanks Gurcharan ji for digging into *Morinda* complex. >>>>> > The situation seems to be in a kind of flux. >>>>> > >>>>> > With so much discussed, in my belief, Neha ji's plant is *Morinda >>>>> > pubescens*... synonym of >>>>> > *M. coreia*. >>>>> > Regards. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Gurcharan Singh < >>>>> singh...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> Dear H S >>>>> >> Perhaps you did not read my mail carefully >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I wrote (on the basis of KEW Plant List) that M. tomentosa Heyne ex >>>>> Roth, >>>>> >> 1821 is synonym of M. citrifolia L., 1753.....that should be fine >>>>> with >>>>> >> Principle of Priority >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I also wrote that on the basis of combinations cited by me M. >>>>> tomentosa >>>>> >> and >>>>> >> M. tinctoria var. tomentosa are two different plants and latter is >>>>> synonym >>>>> >> of M. coreia (as per Kew List) >>>>> >> >>>>> >> If we have latest Database of 2010, citing earlier publications >>>>> carries no >>>>> >> meaning in final solution. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Please read my mail analysis carefully and suggest if you have any >>>>> >> improvements. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I could not understand what you wanted to convey "Morinda tinctoria >>>>> is not >>>>> >> glabrous either tomentose... which is >>>>> >> commonly found in Sanjay Gandhi National Park..." >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Leaves shining and glabrous on both >>>>> >> surfaces....................................Morinda citrifolia >>>>> >> Leaves tomentose on both >>>>> >> surfaces..................................................Morinda >>>>> coreia >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -- >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>> >> Retired Associate Professor >>>>> >> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>> >> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>> >> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>> >> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 11:03 AM, H S <hemsan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> Morinda tinctoria is not glabrous either tomentose... which is >>>>> >>> commonly found in Sanjay Gandhi National Park... though everyone >>>>> merge >>>>> >>> M. tinctoria and M. pubescens.. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> M. tomentosa is in 1821 is earlier than M. coeria Buch.-Ham. is in >>>>> >>> 1822 . and M. tinctoria Roxb. is later in 1832. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Hook.f. was first to change the rank.. infact he made many other >>>>> var. >>>>> >>> in genus M. tinctoria >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> According to Blatter, M. citrifolia is introduce species to >>>>> India... >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I have seen M. citrifolia only in Cultivation... >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> On 5/27/11, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>> > Perhaps the easiest difference between the two species >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > Leaves shining and glabrous on both >>>>> >>> > surfaces....................................Morinda citrifolia >>>>> >>> > Leaves tomentose on both >>>>> >>> > surfaces..................................................Morinda >>>>> >>> > coreia >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > In light of this above plant should be M. coreia >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > -- >>>>> >>> > Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>> >>> > Retired Associate Professor >>>>> >>> > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>> >>> > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>> >>> > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>> >>> > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 8:51 AM, Gurcharan Singh < >>>>> singh...@gmail.com> >>>>> >>> wrote: >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >> Dear Neil ji and Dinesh ji >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> The link and discussion cited by Neil ji was dated in 2009, and >>>>> lot >>>>> >>> >> has >>>>> >>> >> changed since the publication of KEW Plant List in 2010. It >>>>> still >>>>> >>> contains >>>>> >>> >> some ambiguities but hope we will have to live with these for at >>>>> least >>>>> >>> 2-3 >>>>> >>> >> years more till things are sorted out. >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> The name Morinda pubescens Sm., according to Kew Plant List is >>>>> >>> >> unplaced >>>>> >>> >> name, yet to be resolved >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> In Flora of British India, Sir J D Hooker, while naming the >>>>> variety >>>>> >>> >> M. >>>>> >>> >> tinctoria var. tomentosa Hook.f. did cite M. tomentosa Heyne in >>>>> Roth >>>>> >>> as >>>>> >>> >> the >>>>> >>> >> first synonym, but perhaps the two plants are different (Hooker >>>>> also >>>>> >>> gave >>>>> >>> >> differentiating characters as leaves tomentose on both surfaces, >>>>> >>> peduncles >>>>> >>> >> leaf-opposed) and that is why the entry at Kew Plant List as >>>>> well >>>>> >>> >> TROPICOS >>>>> >>> >> (and Fernandez, Trees of Mumbai, page 174, 1999--though I have >>>>> not >>>>> >>> >> seen >>>>> >>> >> this) lists the variety as tomentosa Hook.f and not (Heyne ex >>>>> Roth) >>>>> >>> >> Hook.f., >>>>> >>> >> similarly Fernandez while transferring this to species to *M. >>>>> coreia* >>>>> >>> >> Buch.-Ham., >>>>> >>> >> names it as *M. coreia* Buch.-Ham. var. *tomentosa *(Hook.f.) >>>>> >>> >> Fernandez >>>>> >>> >> and not *M. coreia* Buch.-Ham. var. tomentosa (Heyne ex Roth) >>>>> >>> Fernandez. >>>>> >>> >> ......................This taxon (excluding M. tomentosa Hehne >>>>> ex >>>>> >>> >> Roth) >>>>> >>> is >>>>> >>> >> according to KEW Plant List synonym of M. *M. coreia* Buch.-Ham. >>>>> In >>>>> >>> fact >>>>> >>> >> M. tinctoria Roxb. itself is synonym of *M. coreia* Buch.-Ham >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-129800 >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> The fact that two (*M. tinctoria* var. *tomentosa* Hook.f. and >>>>> M. >>>>> >>> >> tomentosa Heyne ex Roth) are different is supported by the fact >>>>> that >>>>> >>> *M. >>>>> >>> >> tomentosa* Heyne ex Roth is now considered as synonym of *M. >>>>> >>> citrifolia*L. >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-129953 >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> Perhaps both species (M. coreia and M. citrifolia) occur in >>>>> India and >>>>> >>> >> a >>>>> >>> >> reliable recent key should help. >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> -- >>>>> >>> >> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>> >>> >> Retired Associate Professor >>>>> >>> >> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>> >>> >> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>> >>> >> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>> >>> >> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 12:23 AM, Neil Soares >>>>> >>> >> <drneilsoa...@yahoo.com>wrote: >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >>> Hi, >>>>> >>> >>> Thought we had settled this issue. Please refer to this link: >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix/browse_thread/thread/5927bedae08f10f4/d1f9f53b736d543e?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=Morinda+tomentosa+Neil+Soares#d1f9f53b736d543e >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> Regards, >>>>> >>> >>> Neil Soares. >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> --- On *Thu, 5/26/11, Dinesh Valke <dinesh.va...@gmail.com>* >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> From: Dinesh Valke <dinesh.va...@gmail.com> >>>>> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:70406] Re: Please identify this >>>>> tree >>>>> >>> >>> To: "Gurcharan Singh" <singh...@gmail.com> >>>>> >>> >>> Cc: "efloraofindia" <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com> >>>>> >>> >>> Date: Thursday, May 26, 2011, 11:36 PM >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> Gurcharan ji ... *OR* did you imply *M. pubescens* is J. E. Sm >>>>> is now >>>>> >>> >>> reduced to synonmy of *M. coreia* Buch.-Ham. ? >>>>> >>> >>> Regards. >>>>> >>> >>> Dinesh >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Dinesh Valke >>>>> >>> >>> <dinesh.va...@gmail.com< >>>>> >>> >>>>> http://us.mc339.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dinesh.va...@gmail.com> >>>>> >>> >>> > wrote: >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> Gurcharan ji, >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> 1) *M. tinctoria Roxb. var tomentosa (Heyne ex Roth.) Hook. f*. >>>>> ... >>>>> >>> >>> synonym of *M. pubescens* J. E. Sm >>>>> >>> >>> 2) *M. tinctoria var. tomentosa Hook.f.* ... renamed as *M. >>>>> coreia* >>>>> >>> var. >>>>> >>> >>> *tomentosa* (Hook. f.) R.R.Fernandez ... synonym of *M. >>>>> >>> coreia*Buch.-Ham. >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> Wanting to clear my confusion ... hope these: 1) and 2) are >>>>> distinct. >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> Regards. >>>>> >>> >>> Dinesh >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 7:22 AM, Gurcharan Singh >>>>> >>> >>> <singh...@gmail.com< >>>>> >>> http://us.mc339.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=singh...@gmail.com> >>>>> >>> >>> > wrote: >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> According to Kew Plant List Morinda tinctoria var. tomentosa >>>>> Hook.f. >>>>> >>> was >>>>> >>> >>> renamed Morinda coreia var. >>>>> >>> >>> tomentosa<http://www.tropicos.org/Name/100225909> (Hook. >>>>> >>> >>> f.) R.R.Fernandez (TROPICOS information) in Trees of Mumbai >>>>> 174, >>>>> >>> 1999. >>>>> >>> >>> This >>>>> >>> >>> is now considered as synonym of *Morinda* *coreia* Buch.-Ham. >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-129800 >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> -- >>>>> >>> >>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>> >>> >>> Retired Associate Professor >>>>> >>> >>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>> >>> >>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>> >>> >>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>> >>> >>> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:31 PM, H S <hemsan...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I think M. tinctoria Roxb. var tomentosa (Heyne ex Roth.) Hook. >>>>> f. is >>>>> >>> syn >>>>> >>> >>> of M. pubescens J. E. Sm. >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> -- >>>>> >>> >>> - H.S. >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a >>>>> mere >>>>> >>> heart >>>>> >>> >>> of >>>>> >>> >>> stone >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> -- >>>>> >>> - H.S. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere >>>>> heart >>>>> >>> of >>>>> >>> stone >>>>> >>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> - H.S. >>>>> >>>>> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere heart >>>>> of >>>>> stone >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >
