Hi Francois,I read the doc on the plane over to Hiroshima. I pretty much agree with the discussion, or at least understand it. Yet, after having read the document, I was left wondering, what is it that you actually want to say with?
In summary, you want to say that a network operator has three options: 1. Catch RAO packets (grab the hand grenade and hope it doesn't blow *) 2. Ignore them, let them pass (pass it on quickly to the next router) 3. Drop them (throw far, far, away, e.g. to /dev/null)[* Scott Bradner once in a discussion with him compared RAO to a hand grenade :) ]
All of those choices have implications, of course. Maybe you could be more clear on these options. What would be a default behavior to do? if you 1, you are vulnerable, if you 2, the next guy might not be happy, if you 3, someone else might not be happy.
(Note that in Section 5 you talk about looking at payload of interest, yet, here you come back to the problem of how to define the filter at a suitable granularity as to not catch all RAO packets and DoS yourself.)
Some answers in addition below. Cheers, Jukka Francois Le Faucheur wrote:
Hello Jukka, On 6 Nov 2009, at 09:34, Jukka MJ Manner wrote:My WG having been a victim of a long debate on router alert, I believe there is value in documenting if or when RAO should or should not be used.Good.Yet, there are already several RFCs that discuss/present RAO (2113, 2711, 5350). I have thought about the RAO lately and how to go forward, and it might make sense to merge these existing specs together, add recent views on RAO, and obsolete the previous RFCs.There has been quite a bit of discussion about obsoleting (or not) RFC 2113 & RFC 2711. Our conclusions from that discussion was that the most effective approach was to :break down the RAO discussions into two different "tracks":* one track that assumes current RAO definition (RFC2113 & 2711) and router implementation. The aim there is to define a BCP discussing if/where/how RAO should/should not be used in the current IP world. This can be done in a short time frame. This is the scope of draft-rahman-rtg-router-alert-considerations * one track that investigates potential changes to RAO definition. This is the scope of draft-narayanan-rtg-router-alert-extensions. This is much more exploratory and with longer term implications since it would depend on deployment of routers supporting the "new" RAO. This would be a Standards Track document.
Sounds fine. Not sure of the STD track above, maybe first experimental?
Could we agree to:* "add recent views on RAO" (including pointers to relevant parts of RFC5350 such as discussion on Experimental RAO values, and as already done including pointers to relevant text of RFC2113/2711) into draft-rahman-rtg-router-alert-considerations, and * "merge RFC 2113/2711 and obsolete/update/work-along these previous RFCs" in draft-narayanan-rtg-router-alert-extensions if/when the work on changing RAO definition progresses?
Sounds okey to me.
I believe it is really important to provide a BCP asap on use of RAO in the current situation and the above proposal would help us get there in a reasonable timeframe.Thanks FrancoisI will arrive too late on Monday to take part in the int are meeting and hear the discussion, unless it would happen as the last item on the agenda.cheers, Jukka Francois Le Faucheur wrote:FYI. Francois Begin forwarded message:*From: *internet-dra...@ietf.org <mailto:internet-dra...@ietf.org> *Date: *26 October 2009 15:15:02 CET *To: *i-d-annou...@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-annou...@ietf.org>*Subject: **I-D Action:draft-rahman-rtg-router-alert-considerations-03.txt **Reply-To: *internet-dra...@ietf.org <mailto:internet-dra...@ietf.org>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.Title : IP Router Alert Considerations and Usage Author(s) : F. Le Faucheur Filename : draft-rahman-rtg-router-alert-considerations-03.txt Pages : 25 Date : 2009-10-26 The IP Router Alert Option is an IP option that alerts transit routers to more closely examine the contents of an IP packet. RSVP, PGM, IGMP/MLD, MRD and GIST are some of the protocols that make use of the IP Router Alert option. This document discusses security aspects and usage guidelines around the use of the current IP Router Alert option. Specifically, it provides recommendation against using the Router Alert in the end-to-end open Internet as well as identify controlled environments where protocols depending on Router Alert can be used safely. It also provides recommendation about protection approaches for Service Providers. Finally it provides brief guidelines for Router Alert implementation on routers. A URL for this Internet-Draft is:http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rahman-rtg-router-alert-considerations-03.txtInternet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft.------------------------------------------------------------------------_______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list i-d-annou...@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Int-area mailing list Int-area@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area-- Jukka MJ Manner, Professor, PhD. Phone: +358+(0)9+451 2481 Helsinki University of Technology Mobile: +358+(0)50+5112973 Department of Communications Fax: +358+(0)9+451 2474 and Networking (Comnet) Office: G320 (Otakaari 5A) P.O. Box 3000, FIN-02015 TKK E-mail: jukka.man...@tkk.fi Finland WWW: www.comnet.tkk.fi <jukka_manner.vcf>
-- Jukka MJ Manner, Professor, PhD. Phone: +358+(0)9+451 2481 Helsinki University of Technology Mobile: +358+(0)50+5112973 Department of Communications Fax: +358+(0)9+451 2474 and Networking (Comnet) Office: G320 (Otakaari 5A) P.O. Box 3000, FIN-02015 TKK E-mail: jukka.man...@tkk.fi Finland WWW: www.comnet.tkk.fi
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