On Mon, Mar 13, 2006 at 04:33:36PM +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> Le Lun 13 mars 2006 00:13, Axel Thimm a écrit :
> > On Sun, Mar 12, 2006 at 06:53:26PM +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> >> The situation would not even arise if ivtv was available as a
> >> kernel patch (meaning - building with normal kernel tools on
> >> vanilla kernel *not* custom tools on v4l cvs). That's the
> >> canonical kernel way and it is supported by Fedora (just drop the
> >> patch in the srpm as for example the wireless guys have been
> >> doing - the wireless tree didn't even exist when ivtv declared
> >> merging time!)
> >
> > That's not true, Fedora Core only includes non-upstream bits when
> > there is some obvious vendor interest like wlan, selinux, cluster/gfs
> > and xen. Otherwise if you come up with any non-enterprise grade
> > requests you get the usual "make it happen upstream".
> 
> That's 100% true I can modify any FC kernel SRPM to include a patch in ~15
> min of work, you can contrast it with the work needed to integrate ivtv
> cleanly.

No, you certainly know better than that. This in not "supported by
Fedora". If you define by "supported by a vendor" that he allows you
to have your custom kernels, then show me one who doesn't.

> >> [... lots of ranting ...]
> >
> >> Here.
> >> I'm done.
> >> Hope I won't resend something like this in a few months.
> >> I'm probably dead wrong about some things but that's how ivtv looks like
> >> from a bystander point of view.
> >
> > Nicolas, I think you're treating the project developers quite
> > unfair.
> 
> You can think whatever you want.

Thank God for that! :)

> > ivtv has undergone very rapid development even though at a slower
> > pace in the new year, and as Hans pointed out, lots of things are
> > visible on the v4l lists or Linus' changelogs.
> >
> > The ivtv project has managed to keep its users very happy.
> 
> The ivtv has managed to keep *one* class of users very happy.

That class being the *vast* majority of users.

> > New kernels are supported in a very timely manner
> 
> That's not really true

How do you base that statement? Name a released kernel that wasn't
supported within days at most.

> Axel, if you want to be credible about this, I'd suggest you start taking
> all feedback, the one you like with the one you don't. ivtv right now is
> organised to catter about one sort of user (your users if I wanted to
> oversimplify), and actively discourages any other feedback (your answer is
> unfortunately a textbook example of this).
> 
> When Hans says he doesn't have the time for anything else he's brutaly
> honest (even if I wish he had answered something else). When *you* say
> everything is fine, you're not.
> 
> I only posted to debunk the myth all users where happy with the quiproquo,
> fully expecting some abuse in return. I'm sorry I was right. Though the
> "real" user bit is a bit rich.
> 
> I don't doubt no one will dare asking the same question for a few months
> now. Score 1 for the real users.

Your definition of a user seems to be very limited and focused to
yourself - don't call others biased. I'm talking about the majority of
users, and I usually don't show off with stats, but to prove the point
of majority

# grep -c ivtv /var/log/httpd/dl.atrpms.net-access_log.2006-03
31724

And that's rpms for Fedora/RHEL only, doesn't include tarballs,
Mandriva rpms etc. And it's just for 12 1/2 days. Yes ivtv is very
successful and the packaged form is the preferred form *the real
users* utilize.

You are unnecessarily polemic towards this project and now in
particular against me I think.
-- 
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net

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