on 4/15/00 1:00 PM, Ship, Howard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Sorry ... there's some kind of DNS issue that suddenly cropped up.
> 
> Try by IP:
> 
> http://206.35.141.116/tapestry
> 
> This appears to work from outside the Primix firewall.

Woopps...accidentally hit the wrong key before I was ready to send it...

Ok...I have spent more time thinking about all of this and I'm -1 on your
suggestion of adding your product to the Java Apache Project _today_. As
with all -1's here is my reasoning...

#1. We don't need yet another XML based markup language. Putting XML into
HTML is a really bad design idea because it does not foster a MVC design
model like WebMacro and Freemarker does. Coldfusion and many other products
blatantly suck for this reason. Cocoon is the best solution for putting XML
into HTML because it follows the W3C specifications.

#2. Your end functionality is very similar to Turbine. No need to re-invent
the wheel in my opinion. Instead you should partner with Turbine.

#3. the tapestry.component.* classes is the wrong way to do things because
they never end up being enough. DatabaseQuery is obviously a bad idea, you
state that yourself in your Javadocs. These object should be useful for
generating a MVC model, not for hiding things from the end user. The HTML
components in the least, you should integrate with ECS.

For example, I just added a SelectorBox class to Turbine that solves a
problem in Webmacro where it is really hard to generate a <select> that has
been populated from the database containing <option> elements that may or
may not be selected. In this case, the best MVC model would be to populate
the SelectorBox in the java code and then stuff that into the context where
it can be retrieved by the designer and placed anywhere. Specifics like the
size of the box and such can also be set by the designer. Example:

<td>
$selectorBox.setSize(5).setMultiple(true)
</td>

The beauty of the above is that the designer does not need to worry about
setting the selected items on the option elements. They only need to worry
about where it is placed into the design. On top of it, the HTML generated
from the selectorbox class is built with ECS so that one can also take
advantage of the features of ECS.

#4. My impressions from your documentation is that you are trying to go up
against JSP/ASP/PHP/etc...that is the wrong way to do things. You are not
attempting to create anything new, you are simply trying to create an
alternative to those tools. Not useful IMHO. My suggestion to you is to
remove the comparisons to those tools.

#5. As I said before...I get bad vibes from people who shop their technology
around first for a project. Making acceptance into a project a condition for
giving out source code is a really bad way to do things because it makes me
feel like all the hard work that I have done MUST not be as cool as what you
have hidden under your covers...lets see how good and clean and useful your
source code is FIRST! and then I will personally consider you (Note that I
am speaking for myself only and I happen to have -1 privs. Someone else with
-1 privs on this project can freely object to what I say). Not the other way
around. Every other project that has been incorporated into the Java Apache
Project (and Apache Software Foundation as a whole) has done this.

> I'm currently in the process of garnering internal support to release Tapestry
> as an open source project on the Giant Java Tree

Why are you posting here then?

#6. You said that your product does not lock you into the Module
methodologies like Turbine does. Well, I have already stated that is
completely wrong. Now I have something to fire back at you...from what I can
see (I don't have source code)...your product seems to lock people into some
XML markup language scheme that you invented. On top of it, there is quite a
bit that is missing from your product that is already available and well
thought out (and pluggable) in Turbine such as

#7. You are either going to go OS or you aren't. Pick a license and just put
it up on your website. If another project, such as Java Apache likes your
code, then we will ask you if you are interested in joining forces ...
otherwise, feel free to come up with yet another alternative to doing the
same thing over and over and over again...


I really wish you good luck with your code. You have obviously spent a lot
of time with it. I hope that it becomes a successful project and gets a lot
of mindshare because regardless of what I might think of it, it will help
the overall cause of getting people to recognize that Java Servlets are the
future.

-jon

--
Scarab -
      Java Servlet Based - Open Source
         Bug/Issue Tracking System
        <http://scarab.tigris.org/>




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