Settle this matter outside this group guys. Please... On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 12:51, Kirk <kirk.pepperd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> To say that Neal is working from an OSS manual is trolling. If that is a > personal attack so be it. I and others on this list know Neal. If you want > to talk about the merits of his points then we can have a conversation. If > you want to involve OSS manuals, we're done. > > Cheers, > Kirk > > On Sep 4, 2010, at 10:50 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote: > > > Glad this thread has turned "constructive". No better way to tell > > someone they shouldn't stoop to personal attacks by personally > > attacking him. That'll surely drive home the point. > > > > I really do urge you to cross-check the OSS manual with neal's > > postings on e.g. lambda-dev and coin-dev. Trolling is posting > > something you don't mean or believe in just to get a rise out of > > folks. I really do believe that Neal is engaging in many of the things > > on that list. Note that I never claimed he's doing this intentionally, > > though I did engage in some fox-news-esque insinuations I probably > > shouldn't have. You know the drill, show something bad happening, make > > an observation about something that has not proven to have been > > related, and then going: "Coincidence?!?!? Huh, huh? Be afraid!". > > > > Then again it seems very hard to me to prove that Neal is > > intentionally trying to slow down java development by insisting on > > bureaucracy when no one else feels its necessary and urging for > > radicalism when everyone else wants to follow the book. > > > > All I'm trying to say is: Taking what Neal says as truth is something > > I definitely wouldn't turn into a habit. In fact, taking what anyone > > says as truth is something you should attempt to avoid. > > > > > > On Sep 3, 1:50 pm, Kirk <kirk.pepperd...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> wow, I don't think Neal is anything of that sorts. He is a very > brilliant language person.. there aren't that many people that share his > knowledge and experience and passion to the table. He may work for MS but > IMHO he is still very vested in Java, the language. You may disagree with > him but to call him a professional troll is so far out of bounds I'd call it > trolling by yourself. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Kirk > >> > >> On Sep 3, 2010, at 1:33 PM, Robert Casto wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>> Reinier, > >> > >>> How about you come to the forum with something constructive to say > instead of bashing what everyone else is saying? Seriously, people would > like to find a path through this mess and have something they can > definitively say when their boss starts asking questions. All you have done > is voiced a lot of disappointment and angst. I mentioned OpenJDK as an > option and there is some concern from Neal Gafter that there might be > problems there too. > >> > >>> If you have a better idea, please share it for all of us to read. > >> > >>> Sorry, but I take offense at people who just go around bashing what > others say when they have nothing to contribute. > >> > >>> - Robert > >> > >>> On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 5:16 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot < > reini...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> You're taking something Neal says as gospel? > >> > >>> He's might be a professional troll, paid by microsoft to sow confusion > >>> in the ranks. > >> > >>> This is a copy of the OSS (the precursor of the CIA)'s manual on > >>> casual sabotage in the field. It has a section on sabotaging > >>> businesses. Neal pretty much covered everything in that on various > >>> java language mailing lists. I don't know if he's merely a pedantic > >>> stickler, or actively trying to sabotage java. Just saying. > >> > >>> http://www.slideshare.net/pastinson/u-oss-simple-sabotage-sm > >> > >>> On Sep 2, 7:31 pm, dario <dario.nycj...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> Apparently not. > >> > >>>> From Neal Gafter's recent blog posting: > >> > >>>> "...even though I am a contributor to openjdk7, I do not have a > >>>> license to Oracle's patents that are necessarily infringed by the use > >>>> of the openjdk7 source base. This is a very confusing position for the > >>>> organizer of an open-source effort to take." > >> > >>>> > http://gafter.blogspot.com/2010/08/couple-of-comments-on-defender-met... > >> > >>>> -Dario > >> > >>>> On Aug 31, 10:29 am, Jan Goyvaerts <java.arti...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >>>>> Is OpenJDK independent from Oracle ? > >> > >>>>> On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 16:24, Robert Casto <casto.rob...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>>>> I very much like where this thread is headed. > >> > >>>>>> Having viable options with Java that Oracle can not touch sounds > like a win > >>>>>> for the community. There is a lot of value in those libraries that > can be > >>>>>> leveraged by a developer. That makes them productive and of benefit > to a > >>>>>> company. If all we have to do is change the underlying VM to > something that > >>>>>> is safe from Oracle, then so be it. I'm sure that VM would get a lot > more > >>>>>> attention from the community to make it great for production use. > >> > >>>>>> On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 8:43 AM, Kevin Wright < > kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com>wrote: > >> > >>>>>>> Funny really, in OS design the small core, big libs approach has > long been > >>>>>>> preferred. > >> > >>>>>>> The windows NT MicroKernel dates back to 1993 > >>>>>>> The original Unix Kernel, 1973 > >> > >>>>>>> In programming languages, it's not so clear-cut. LISP dates back > to 1958, > >>>>>>> and even then you could define your own control constructs within > the > >>>>>>> language - the actual spec is VERY small. > >> > >>>>>>> C++ and derivatives (including Java, C#) broke from this, with > >>>>>>> higher-level constructs such as `for`, `switch` and `while` being > deeply > >>>>>>> embedded at the library level and in the VM. Clojure, Scala and F# > are once > >>>>>>> again pulling the pendulum back again to the small kernel, big libs > idea > >>>>>>> (working with the VM as necessary), and LLVM is doing the same sort > of thing > >>>>>>> at a lower level. For example, tail-call optimisation against the > JVM is > >>>>>>> currently achieved through a technique known as "trampolining" ( > >>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_recursion#Implementation_methods > ) > >> > >>>>>>> So perhaps with the shifting trends in languages, a lighter weight > VM > >>>>>>> really is the right way to go, especially if VMKit & co. can be > used to > >>>>>>> allow us to get at all those juicy open-source libs... > >> > >>>>>>> On 31 August 2010 13:25, Miroslav Pokorny < > miroslav.poko...@gmail.com>wrote: > >> > >>>>>>>> The reason Java became the most popular platform on the planet is > because > >>>>>>>> of all the oss libraries. Nothing out there beats or even comes > close in > >>>>>>>> comparison. Good luck with such a richness of choice and quality > in dotnet > >>>>>>>> land. Maybe java is not quite as fancy as c# but in the end we are > all most > >>>>>>>> of the time just the guy who adds glue between one library and > something > >>>>>>>> else. Maybe Java is a bit more verbose or not as elegant...but in > the end > >>>>>>>> that does not matter, because what we lose in elegance and > language features > >>>>>>>> is more than offseted by magnitudes with oss. > >> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >>>>>>>> "The Java Posse" group. > >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>>>>>>> javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > <javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups .com> > >>>>>>>> . > >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at > >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > >> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Kevin Wright > >> > >>>>>>> mail/google talk: kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com > >>>>>>> wave: kev.lee.wri...@googlewave.com > >>>>>>> skype: kev.lee.wright > >>>>>>> twitter: @thecoda > >> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >>>>>>> "The Java Posse" group. > >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>>>>>> javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > <javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups .com> > >>>>>>> . > >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at > >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > >> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Robert Casto > >>>>>> www.robertcasto.com > >> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >>>>>> "The Java Posse" group. > >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>>>>> javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > <javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups .com> > >>>>>> . > >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at > >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > >> > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "The Java Posse" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > . > >>> For more options, visit this group athttp:// > groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > >> > >>> -- > >>> Robert Casto > >>> www.robertcasto.com > >> > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "The Java Posse" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > . > >>> For more options, visit this group athttp:// > groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "The Java Posse" group. > > To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > . > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "The Java Posse" group. > To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. 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