Well, perhaps I spoke out of turn -- I'm just a JDE user, not a JDE
developer, so I really shouldn't be speaking for the developers as to what
JDE is or is not likely to include in the future. But, regarding the
incremental compilation issue, I thought the issue was that using the
beanshell would make compilation very fast, elimintating the need for
incremental compilation. Here's what I dug up from the archive:
>On 06/12/2001 12:03:23 PM Paul Kinnucan wrote:
>
>
> This would not be difficult. I have been planning to use the Beanshell to
> compile files. This would eliminate the need to run javac, i.e., start up
a
> vm, every time you want to compile a file. Compilation would be virtually
> instantaneous since most of the javac compilation time is due simply to
> starting the vm.
If I'm wrong, and incremental compilation is very easy to do in JDE, then by
all means do it! But it sounds like it might not be necessary.
However, my larger point was that the Emacs/JDE approach is to cooperate
well with external stuff. Integrating with external EJB/servlet containers
is a good example. Obviously, you still need an external EJB/Servlet
container on your server. It also seems obvious, at least to me, that one
would want to test / develop with the same EJB/Servlet container. We've had
problems at work because people are developing with the servlet container
that comes bundled with JBuilder (Tomcat), while we are using WebLogic 5.1
in production. (Now, I'd be happy if we just switched to Tomcat, but that's
a different issue.) I don't need my IDE to double as a servlet container!
Also, I don't want to limit the discussion to strictly Java development. I
develop mostly in Java at work, while still spending some time maintaing the
legacy C++ system, and doing some Perl stuff. At home, I mess with Python
and Elisp, in addition to Java. It's great to have one IDE that does all of
that! I don't have to waste a lot of time learning a different IDE for each
language.
Not that VAJ is bad -- if you like it, use it. But, I am much more
productive in JDE.
Steve Molitor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Regarding
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Hegyi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 3:32 PM
To: Molitor, Stephen; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: The future of JDE?
I disagree with the sentence "JDE is not likely to ... support incremental
compilation, for example." I use both VAJ (my company is partially a
WebSphere shop) and JDE (for nostalgic reasons (the good old college
years...) and small codes.) Incremental compilation is one of the coolest
things I've ever seen in a Java IDE. On my fundamental feature/favorites
list it's now right up there with the most essential feature, syntax
coloring!! If anybody has tried incr. comp., they get addicted to it and
will never want to leave home without it.
Now, I've been told that incr. comp. is actually not that difficult to
achieve for the JDE by piggybacking on the beanshell. And with ecb,
compilation errors could also bee marked (by a small red x, lets say) in the
method tree.
Since we're on the topic: I realize that Emacs supports many-many modes and
that it runs on Ux as well as Win. (BTW, I think that many of the big JAVA
IDEs do as well, because they're written [partially] in Java.) But with IDE
monsters appearing, such as VAJ, which has a whole EJB/Servlet test
environment built in (no need for an EJB/Servlet server/engine - all built
in) and funded with huge sums (for R&D and for the many-many hackers working
full-time to improve it) what do people think of the JDEs future role? Lets
not consider the $ issue (I've never paid for SW in my life. :) ) and lets
only talk about Java development. With fast and cheap PCs appearing with
huge hard disks and RAMs, performance is becoming less of an issue for the
swing-based monsters.
Will JDE be the choice for tiny, simple, non-web-enabled apps? What will
happen to it as Unix becomes KDE-ed and IBM will be spending an additional 2
billion dollars on its e-commerce suite (which includes VAJ)?
Regards,
Daniel
>From: "Molitor, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "'EXT-Syre, John'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 'Galen Boyer'
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: Discussion from comp.lang.java.softwaretools on VAJ.
>Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 14:21:35 -0500
>
>I agree with most of what John said, although I don't think VAJ is so bad.
>I
>actually like a lot of things about VAJ, dislike others. I only used it
>for
>a short while, however. I do know several excellent developers who swear
>by
>VAJ; I'm much happier with Emacs/JDE.
>
>VAJ and Emacs/JDE have radically different philosophies, however. It's
>really an apples / oranges comparison. The Emacs approach is to work well
>with existing tools and the external environment - the Unix philosophy.
>The
>VAJ approach is to provide a simple facade the hides all the complexity
>from
>the user -- the Mac philosophy. The problem with the Unix philosphy is
>that
>it can be harder to learn, and forces you to learn about low level things
>that you might not care about, initially (class paths, for example). The
>problem with the Mac approach is that it can be less flexible, and hard to
>make it work well with external tools and the external environment -- it's
>monolithic. Integrating VAJ with an external CM tool is a bit of a pain,
>for example. (But I've heard that IBM has acknowledged this problem and
>will integrate VAJ better with external CM tools in the next version.)
>Also, you can't use VAJ with other languages (except Smalltalk) -- you have
>to learn another IDE for that. Emacs can be extended to work with any
>language.
>
>Suggesting that JDE add things that are fundamentally incompatible with
>it's
>whole approach is not productive. JDE is not likely to have it's own
>version control system, or support incremental compilation, for example.
>(Writing an external version control system that supported method-level
>versioning, and then integrating that with Emacs and other IDE's might be a
>good idea, however.) If you want that, use VAJ.
>
>Now, if there are some nifty little things, like wizards or what have you,
>that you like in VAJ and that could easily added to JDE, without changing
>it's whole approach, then by all means suggest them. Otherwise, just stick
>with VAJ and don't bother this mailing list.
>
>Steve Molitor
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EXT-Syre, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 1:54 PM
>To: 'Galen Boyer'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: Discussion from comp.lang.java.softwaretools on VAJ.
>
>
>
>OH, NO its him again!!!!!!!!!!!!1
>
>Galen,
>
>As I said in an earlier email, if you have productive suggestions
>Paul and the rest of JDEE development environment community
>would be glad to hear it.
>
>I for one have used VAJ, JBuilder, Visual Cafe, a plethora of our
>tools. In two groups we evaluated each of the first three. Hands
>down VAJ was the one that people disliked except for one developer
>in the group and worked for IBM Global (I wonder why he liked VAJ).
>
>I highly disliked the VAJ IDE. I especially disliked the repository. We
>got it corrupted in both places I worked. Beginners users took a long time
>to be productive. In fact the vi/javac crowd by far produced more awt/gui
>code than the VAJ bunch. IDEs have their place. IMO, those that are
>looking for an IDE put VAJ at the bottom of your list. Try the others
>first. For the rest, of one nice things about emacs/jdee is that it's not
>a full fledged IDE. So, rather than playing around all day with a new
>paradigm of how to do something we can write real code.
>
>So Galen, if you like VAJ use it (and pay your $$$$$). If you have
>beneficial suggestions for emacs/jdee make them. In fact you could do
>better. Learn to program and contribute to jdee!!!! Else go find something
>worth while to do instead of spamming this list with your VAJ dribble.
>
>John Syre
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Galen Boyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 1:07 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Discussion from comp.lang.java.softwaretools on VAJ.
>
>
>I think there are some things that VAJ does that the JDEE could
>do but doesn't right now.
>
>HERE IS A THREAD.
>
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Glenn G. D'mello)
>Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.softwaretools
>Date: 8 Aug 2001 10:57:25 -0500
>User-Agent: Xnews/4.05.11
>
>"George Duh-bya" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
>
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Glenn G. D'mello) wrote in
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
> >
> >> "Ingo Tolke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
> >> news:9khu3i$lec$01$[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
> >>
> >>> I want to learn Java, and I am looking for the best (and free!!!)
> >>> IDE to do it.
> >>
> >> IBM VisualAge for Java: http://www.software.ibm.com/ad/vajava
> >>
> >
> > You are joking, right? VisualAge is the worst (by far) IDE for
>
>No I'm not.
>
> > beginners! You don't learn Java be using it, and can only use it if
> > you already know Java.
>
>Here's why I consider it the best IDE for beginners:
>
>0. It gets the beginner thinking in terms of 'Objects' rather
> than 'files'.
>
>1. No how do I create a package and how do I
> create classes in a package issues:
> Creating packages and classes/interfaces in a package is
> very intuitive.
>
>2. No problems with 'classpath' issues:
> VisualAge allows you to group related packages in a 'project' and
> you only need to tweak the 'classpath' settings if your classes need
> to reference more than one 'user-created' project.
>
>3. Hierarchical view of Package<->Classes. Right click on a class
> and select 'Open to Hierarchy' to view the inheritance
> (and implementation) hierarchy.
>
>4. User defined visibility of methods: you can view all methods of
> the class you're working on, view all inherited methods, view
> inherited methods upto a named class....
>
>5. None of those 'Only one public class per java file issues'.
>
>
>VisualAge just gets out of the way and leaves you free to learn Java the
>language. And once you start using VAJ, a whole host of other benefits
>which file based IDEs can only dream about:
>
>5. Method level source control
> VAJ tracks changes at the method level instead of at the 'file'
>level. This means that I can merge/diff code at the method level. This
>also allows multiple developers to work on the same java class (on
>different methods) without stepping on each others code.
>
>6. Stack rollback in debugger
> VAJ gives me the ability to pause a running thread and roll back
>the stack to any point in the stack.
>
>7. Incremental compilation
> VAJ gives me the ability to pause a thread, change code and restart
>the paused thread with the modified code without needing to recompile/
>restart the application. Before VAJ, no other IDE let you do that (ok,
>Smalltalk developers can stop sniggering now).
> Incremental Compilation makes it possible to have a bug in a method
>in a class (such that that class will not compile under javac) and
>still have VAJ run that code because VAJ compiles the syntactically
>correct methods and flags all incorrect methods. Partially correct code
>compiles partially and runs, as long as the thread of control doesn't
>touch a missing (or incorrect) bit of code.
>
>8. VCE (Visual Composition Editor)
> There isn't any better one for Java. VAJ's VCE is the only one I
>know of which can be used to build a non-visual application using Java
>Beans. It makes it possible to create an application without writing a
>single line of code.
>
>9. Scrapbook
> VAJ's scrapbook acts like a java interpreter. You can type in a
>snippet (or a couple of pages) of java code and execute it without
>going to the trouble of creating a java file, compiling it and
>executing it.
>
>10. Code Cross-referencing :
> VAJ lets me highlight an interface and shows me all classes that
>implement that interface. You can search/slice and dice your code in
>any way you can think of.
>
>11. 'Problems page'
> VAJ has a 'problems page' that lists all compilation errors in the
>workspace. This feature is a lifesaver as you can see at a glance if
>your changes have impacted any other developer and what code needs to
>be changed.
>
>12. 'Evaluation page'
> VAJ's debugger has an 'Evaluation page' where you can type in any
>bit of code that calls methods in any other class and have it operate
>on the variables (in the paused thread) currently visible in the
>debugger.
>
>
>Given all the benefits, I fail to see how file-based, 'non-java' aware
>(no, syntax highlighting does not make an IDE 'java aware') IDEs can be
>recommended.
>
>HTH,
>
>Glenn.
>
>
>--
>Apologies. Due to the insane amounts of spam I get on every post to
>usenet, mail sent to the posting address is delivered to /dev/null.
>Post to the group or use my name at my sending domain for emailing.
>
>--
>Galen Boyer
>It seems to me, I remember every single thing I know.
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