I think it is good that we can see the extent to which you people have studied Vivekananda or Gandhi to find material that suits you in your project of Hindutva - please mark that I use "hindutva" as seperate from Hinduism - one is a political ideology and another is a religion. People who read this exchange will form their own opinions about what is right and what is wrong. If one looks at the political uses to which religions have been used - you will find half the evil/tragedies in human history arising from religious faith. To transcend such evilness (i use the term consciously) one must look at what causes such situations to develop i.e. one has to get out of tit-for-tat solutions that you advocate. In this technological age where the smallest millenerian group can end up destroying evetything, such exclusionary and hatefilled approach towards what others believe in are a sure prescription for disaster. Look at what is happening with the situation in Middle East and Pakistan - mixing religion with politics has led to such incredible tragdies - and yes, it is not hindutva that is the problem in these countries - it is people who are using Islam and Christianity as political identity tools.
you want to apply the same model to India - draw us into a fanatical, modernised hindutva ideology - where is it going to lead us. Protest against conversion by evangelical christians by all means or even against Wahbabi Islam - but not as a fanatic, hateful counterpoint through burning missionaries and burning churces. Just for example - how many cases of forceful conversion have been filed in the last eighht years in Orissa/Kandhmal under the Anti-conversion law in last eight years of BJP-BJD rule. Go by the rule of law- who stops you. However, Hindutvavadis will deliberately flout the law and the legal system - for they are not interested in stopping conversions, they are interested in keeping it alive so that they can use it politically to establish their own form of fascist polity Regards Nachiketa On 1/24/08, v <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 1/25/08, Environmental Protection Group Orissa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > Just to illustrate differences between Hinduism and Hindutva > > > > Regards > > > > Nachiketa > > > > > Lime many Rajindar Sachar follows an outdated Hinduism. Hinduism has > always adjusted itself to the times. Eg today we do not really follow the > Hinduism of the vedic times do we? > > Quoting Vivekananda is laughable. He said many things at many times. Compare > this Vivekananda, in fact, profusely praised Islam saying, "without the > help of practical Islam, theories of Vedantism, however fine and wonderful > they may be, are entirely valueless to the vast mass of mankind. For our own > motherland a junction of the two great systems, Hinduism and Islam ? Vedanta > brain and Islam body ? is the only hope". > > See this > "Long years before Gandhi spoke his mind on Islam, Swami Vivekananda told > a gathering in London in November, 1896: "In the Quran there is the doctrine > that a man who does not believe these teachings should be killed. It is a > mercy to kill him! Think of the bloodshed there has been in consequence of > such beliefs!" > > What is wrong with defene of Hinduism. How many of in the forum want to > end up as the 300,000 Kashmiri Pandits, who are refugee in their own > homelands. > > Shri Krishna tells Arjuna very clearly, do not act like a coward, do your > duty upholding dharma. Since nowadays we do not have our kshatiyaas or > rajas to look after the Hindus anymore, it becomes the task of every Hindu > to do it. > > To put things into perspecpective. What is arun shourie talking about: > Read the sachar recommendations. Any Hindu will be awakened by it: > > The Politics of Seperatism - Sachar Committe report a MUST read for > every Indian > > > The Task force on Border Management, one of the four that were set up > after the Kargil war, reported with alarm about the way madrassas had > mushroomed along India's borders. On the basis of information it received > from intelligence agencies it expressed grave concern at the amount of > foreign funds that flowed into these operations. Those "educated" in these > madarssas did not qualify for jobs but as incendiary unemployables. It > expressed gravest concern on what these madrassas were doing, on how they > were talibanising the Muslim youth. It also advised that their reports be > made public. Yet these reports were kept a secret and in lieu of creating > awareness and taking action against this burning issue, the Sachar committee > was instituted. > > > Arun Shourie the famous Indian Express columnist has summarized the > recommendations of the Sachar Committee as follows but before we go there, > you must know that this is the program every "secular" that is in government > is demanding that the government implement forthwith. And every secularist > outside the government ?CPI(M) for example is scolding the government for > not implementing swiftly enough. > > *Sachar Committee recommendations* > > > 1. It recommends the recognition of the degrees from madrassas for > eligibility in competitive examinations such as the civil services, banks, > defense services and other such examinations! > > 2. It recommends that Governments use public funds to encourage the > formation of Muslim NGOs and their activities > > 3. It recommends that government provide financial and other support to > occupations and areas which are Muslim dominated. > > 4. It recommends that Muslims be in selection committees, interview panels > and boards for public services > > 5. It recommends that a higher proportion of Muslims be inducted in > offices that deal with the public ? the teaching community, health workers, > police personnel, bank employees etc > > 6. It recommends provision of "equivalece" to madrassa certificate/degrees > for subsequent admission into institutions of higher education. > > 7. It recommends that government give special incentives to banks to open > branches in Muslim dominated areas > > 8. It recommends that instead of reporting "amount outstanding" banks > should report as "sanctions" or "disbursements" to minorities. > > 9. It recommends that financial institutions should set up separate funds > for Muslim entrepreneurs > > 10 It requires banks to set up special micro credit schemes for Muslims > > 11 It recommends that all districts more than a quarter of whose > population is Muslim be brought into the prime minister's 15 point program > > 12 It recommends that for each program of government, data be maintained > separately about the extent to which Muslims are benefiting from it > > 13 It recommends that each department institute new schemes for the > benefit of Muslims > > 14 It recommends special measures for the promotion of Urdu > > 15 It recommends that University grants be linked to the diversity of the > student population > > 16 It recommends that eligibility criteria for IIT be scaled down and > admission should be extended to madrassa educated children > > 17 It recommends that incentives to builders, private sector employees, > educational institutions be linked to diversity > > 18 It recommends that where Muslims are elected or selected in numbers > less that adequate, a carefully conceived "nomination" procedure be worked > out to increase the participation of minorities at grass root level. > > > The Sachar committee goes on to add that "It is imperative that if > minorities have certain *perceptions *of being aggrieved ? notice the > touchstone ? "if the minorities have certain perceptions of being aggrieved > ? all efforts must be made by the state to find a mechanism by which these > complaints could be attended to expeditiously. The mechanism should operate > in a manner which gives full satisfaction to the minorities" Notice again > the touchstone ? not an external criterion but "full satisfaction to the > minorities" ? that any denial of equal opportunities or bias or > discrimination in dealing with them, either by a public functionary or a > private individual will immediately be attended to and redress given. > > > The responsibility is fully on the "other" ? That the "other" must > function to the full satisfaction of Muslims. As long as the Muslims have > certain perceptions of being aggrieved, the "other" is at fault?. > > As if all this was still enough, the committee has proposed a National > Data bank where it becomes mandatory for all departments to supply > information on how their activities are impacting Muslims and other > minorities. On top of this the Govt should set up an Assessment and > Monitoring Authority to evaluate the benefits that are accruing to the > minorities from each program and activity. > > > What will be the consequences of such indiscriminate separatism at > aggregating the "Muslim vote bank"? > > "If Muslims have special laws, special civil codes, special programs, > special incentives, special everything, if they wish to see themselves > "Separate" from us Hindus, if they have distanced themselves from us Hindus, > why should we cling to them? We should also knit ourselves tightly into one > solid bloc" > > > Would Hindus need a Pravin Togadia to tell them this? > > > It is no wonder Modi won Gujarat with such a majority and thanks to the > ploys of the secularist parties and the even more fashionable secular media; > Modi today has come center stage on the national canvas! > > > The young, educated, modern, progressive, English speaking, Hindu will not > witness concessions and appeasement of the Muslim community and consistent > slights on Hindu sentiments routinely in a mute manner. > > > He will not be besotted by English media that chooses to distance itself > exactly in the same manner as Muslims and secularist parties distance > themselves; instead he will show each and every one of them who is BOSS! > > > The young, educated, modern, progressive, English speaking Hindu is a > proud Hindu, a prouder nationalist and he/she has resolved to asset himself, > exert himself and state the rules of the game upfront?.. > > http://nisha007.sulekha.com/blog/post/2007/12/arun-shourie-on-sachar-committe-report-must-read.htm > > This is taken fro arun shourie's article > http://www.indianexpress.com/story/255484._.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > *COLUMN* > > *The Hinduism I know* > > *Rajindar Sachar - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > January 28, 2008 > > http://www.indianexpress.com/story/264498.html > > > > > > *The Indian Express > > > > *I have read with chilling apprehension Arun Shourie's two articles on > > Hinduism in The Indian Express (December 28 and 31) because these are not > > just his individual views but seem to represent the BJP's election strategy. > > He claims that Hinduism also includes a fundamentalist face of ferocious > > response, even violence. He tells us that the Bhagavad Gita supports the > > maxim of 'Wickedness to the wicked' ? and for these pearls of wisdom Shourie > > quotes Lokmanya Tilak as his source (I refuse to attribute this sacrilege to > > the great Tilak ?I hope more knowledgeable people will scotch this heresy). > > Naturally, Shourie ridicules Gandhi for claiming inspiration from the > > Bhagavad Gita for his law, 'Truth even to the wicked'. > > > > Even Hinduism's opponents have not suggested Shourie's view of Hinduism > > as a religion that includes vengefulness. Most people accept Radhakrishnan's > > definition of Hinduism as a way of life. 'Vasudhaiva kutumbakam' (the world > > is one family) is the proud Hindu dictum of tolerance. Of course, > > fair-minded people also accept that the same message of humanity and common > > good runs through all religions. Thus the Holy Quran proclaims, "All the > > created ones belong to the family of God... so, an Arab has no precedence > > over a non-Arab, a White over a Black." And Christ said succinctly, "All are > > children of God." > > > > Shourie's objection to Muslim women wearing headscarves is not on the > > grounds of gender discrimination ? incidentally Shourie must have seen > > Muslim women in India and more in Lahore and Karachi without head scarves; > > as well as Hindu women in villages in > > > > Rajasthan and UP covering their heads and faces. He does not treat this > > as a cultural practice separate from religion, but as a Muslim ploy to > > underscore separateness. > > > > Like Shourie's family, my family is also from West Punjab (now in > > Pakistan). Maybe he is too young to remember, but after Partition, when > > Hindus came to India, all the older women and some of the younger ones from > > rural and even urban areas willingly covered their heads in public as part > > of the cultural tradition they had been brought up in, though they were all > > devout Hindus. Carried to the extreme, the conclusion would be that men in > > South > > > > India who wear dhotis are trying to announce their separateness from the > > North, where we wear pyjamas. Hindus and Muslims in the South wear the dhoti > > ? so how does the communal divide come in? > > > > Shourie has his pet theory that Islam was spread in India by the sword. > > Vivekananda, the greatest exponent of Hinduism, best repudiates this ? "the > > Mohammedan conquest of India came as a salvation to the downtrodden, to the > > poor. That is why one-fifth of our people have become Mohammedans." He also > > said it was "the height of madness" to claim this was achieved by the sword. > > > > > > Vivekananda, in fact, profusely praised Islam saying, "without the help > > of practical Islam, theories of Vedantism, however fine and wonderful they > > may be, are entirely valueless to the vast mass of mankind. For our own > > motherland a junction of the two great systems, Hinduism and Islam ? Vedanta > > brain and Islam body ? is the only hope". Vivekananda was not, as Shourie > > obliquely claimed, referring to the 'Islamic body' as brute strength but to > > the freshness of approach and message of equality brought in by Islam. > > Vivekananda castigated the orthodoxy: "No man, no nation, my son, can hate > > others and live; India's doom was sealed the very day they invented the word > > 'mlechcha' and stopped from communion with others". > > > > Shourie castigates Christians because they oppose idolatry and refers to > > Ramakrishna Paramhans's devotion to the goddess of Dakshineshwar. The > > spiritual height of Ramakrishna Paramhans is undisputed. But then Christians > > are not the only opponents of idolatry. Swami Dayananda, one of the greatest > > exponents of the Vedas in the 19th century (though born in a priestly family > > and brought up to worship the idol of Shiva), says, "There is not a single > > verse in the Vedas to sanction the invocation of the Deity, and likewise > > there is nothing to indicate that it is right to invoke idols." He also > > said, "Idol worship is a sin." > > > > I am firm in my conviction that any attempt to dilute the composite > > culture and inclusive democracy of our country can only bring harm. As > > Maulana Azad's soul-stirring speech (1940) put it, "I am a Muslim and proud > > of the fact. I am indispensable to this noble edifice. Without me this > > splendid structure of India is incomplete. Everything bears the stamp of our > > joint endeavour. Our languages were different, but we grew to use a common > > language. Our manners and customs were different, but they produced a new > > synthesis... no fantasy or artificial scheming to separate and divide can > > break this unity". > > > > *The writer, a retired chief justice, was chairperson of the prime > > minister's high-level committee on the status of Muslims.* > > > > ** > > > > > >
