A lot of the 'high paying' jobs are going unfilled because they are in reality a big pay cut from consulting, not due to a lack of people. It's the free market at work. I have run my own consulting company for the past 5 years - generally we have anywhere between 2 and 10 consultants on projects depending on business cycle; I personally have two CS degrees from Carnegie Mellon and 15 years experience in Java/J2EE/SOA. I have been an employee for 9 of those years, a consultant for 6 (I still bill myself out). The 150K base positions generally result in 60 hour work weeks; no comparison when compared to rates that are in the 90-125hr range for every hour. I have a client in another state with a high level architect position paying 150-175 base. Getting resumes has been extremely difficult - the problem is not a lack of interested people, the problem is they require full time status. That kills the interest.
I have dealt with a lot of PHPers. I've never had one ask for $95. They know their value in general. Unions are not the answer (I don't see outsourcing as a problem). Unions are for industries where there is little differentiation in productivity. The difference in productivity between a good and bad developer is orders of magnitude. --- On Wed, 8/26/09, Shahan Avedian <[email protected]> wrote: > From: Shahan Avedian <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [nyphp-jobs] looking for medium size projects > To: "Web" <[email protected]>, "Chauncey Thorn" <[email protected]>, > "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <[email protected]> > Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2009, 12:04 PM > > > > > > > > > > > I have > had several people contact me and I will say here what I > said to them. The 300K package type jobs are not PHP > positions. They are C++/Java/C# positions > involved > with developing trading systems. My point was to > illustrate many high paying jobs are sitting unfilled here > in NYC simply because there is not enough people to fill > them. These jobs are not being outsourced. As a > recruiter I suffer as much as anyone when > something is outsourced to India..however everytime gets > outsourced it seems another skill set is needed here and > only. > > > > Below > is the relevant excerpt from an article that just > appeared in the New York Times regarding the > programmer who was caught stealing from Goldman…. This > guy would be > a typical example of what we deal with. (Hence 300K > package is viewed with a yawn). > > > Mr. Aleynikov immigrated to the > United States from Russia in 1991. In 1998, he joined IDT a > telecommunications company, where he wrote software to route > calls and data more efficiently. In 2007, Goldman hired him > as a vice president, > paying him $400,000 a year, according to the federal > complaint against him….. This spring, Mr. Aleynikov > quit Goldman to join Teza Technologies, a new trading firm, > tripling his salary to about $1.2 million, according to the > complaint. > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/business/24trading.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Goldman%20Sachs%20and%20programmer&st=cse > > As for Drupal/Php > developers..it is absolute true. Like ANY skill set, your > going to find people all over the range. I spoke to > enough of them where people commanding that kind > of rate is not an aberration. > As for you Rob, you can > continue to believe in whatever you would like, amazing at > how sure you are of yourself. > > SA > > > > > > > From: Web [mailto:[email protected]] > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 2:24 PM > > To: Shahan Avedian; Chauncey Thorn; Kristina D. H. > Anderson > > Cc: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [nyphp-jobs] looking for medium size > projects > > > > > Shahan, > > > > > > For some reason I just > don't believe you. Sorry. Your email is > nonsense. > > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: > Shahan Avedian > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:51 > AM > > > To: > Chauncey Thorn ; > > Kristina D. H. Anderson > > > Cc: > [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [nyphp-jobs] looking for > medium size projects > > > > > > > I am a technical > recuriter based out of the NYC area. I can tell > you right now I have jobs paying 150k with 300K total > package that we cannot find people > for right in Manhattan. The one's that are > qualified are all working and won't consider it. I > speak to consultants all the time who will not get off the > sofa unless they get 95.00 per hour. ( Some would view > 95.00 as a pay cut). It all comes down to skill > set. For every job that is being > offshored…there are other jobs cannot be offshored nor > is there any intention of being offshored. > > > Just recently I was > looking for Strong PHP/Drupal developer…cannot tell > you how many people I spoke who just wouldn't consider a > job unless they got paid > $100.00 per hour. Offshoring is hear to > stay…its not just in the computer programming > world. If companies can get the same thing done at a > cheaper rate its going to go abroad. If they need a > real heavy hitter its going to stay here. The sooner > people > stop viewing themselves as victims and focus on what you > have control over the quicker you will solve your > problems. I can tell you first hand there are whole > classes of programmers who don't share these > views. > > > SA > > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Chauncey Thorn > > Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:46 PM > > To: Kristina D. H. Anderson > > Cc: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [nyphp-jobs] looking for medium size > projects > > > I'm > not sure a Union would solve the problem. I've been > exposed to a number of Union workers and they become very > complacent knowing that they going to be making the same > regardless. I feel this could de-value > the profession. > > > > CT > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 7:02 PM, > Kristina D. H. Anderson <[email protected]> > wrote: > I for one am grateful to see the > passionate opinions being voiced > > here. In an industry where so much is expected of us > in terms of > > knowledge and commitment, and which has been subjected like > no other > > profession to the forces of "globalization" (i.e. > wage reduction), we > > do need to consider, really, how offensive it truly is that > anyone > > feels our work is worth "minimum wage". > > > > And we are subjected to insulting stereotypes which hold > that "computer > > geeks" enjoy their work too much to care about what > they get paid, or > > that all we need are some old T-shirts and some cold pizza > and we are > > good to go...and how much can that cost? Please, > programmers are not > > all the same, and some even have families they need to > support, or > > possibly even other goals besides spending the rest of > their lives > > toiling over a hot text editor for practically no > money...*GASP*. > > > > This all comes back to the issue that I feel is at the core > of > > things...the lack of licensing or credentialling > organizations in our > > field that would perform the core functions that they do in > other > > industries...namely to maintain a certain exclusivity of > talent and to > > fight against economic pressures seeking to dampen wage or > salary rates > > in our industry. Or a programmer's union that > could mandate that the > > MINIMUM hourly rate for any union programmer is $40 or $50 > or whatever > > they decide on...and make it hard on companies that > don't use union > > programmers...or whatever the solution might be. > > > > I feel that attempting to take work away from NYC > programmers by > > undercutting our billing rates to the tune of 8 DOLLARS AN > HOUR should > > be explicitly prohibited on this list, because it IS > offensive, and > > even potentially harmful. > > > > Happy coding everyone, > > > > Kristina > > > > > > > > > > > > > Folks, > > > > > > I was not trying to be rude or disrespectful to the > person who posted > > the > > > advertisement. I monitor the list for Jobs in > NYC to see what > > employers are > > > looking for. Seeing someone posting an Ad for what is > .75 above > > minimum wage > > > here. I have ZERO desire to compete with those > prices regardless of > > the > > > state of the application after developed. > > > > > > I've been developing PHP application for over 7 > year and my base > > price is 8 > > > times the lowest they would take to develop an > application. I'm sure > > there > > > are other PHP developer here in NYC that are in the > same boat. Why > > would we > > > want those types of Ads. > > > > > > I'm sure there are some skilled PHP developers in > India that are > > willing to > > > write applications for 8-15 USD. But no skilled PHP > developer in the > > NY is > > > going to work for those prices and I spoke up to halt > the competition. > > > Nothing personal (and I mean that) > > > > > > To be honest I didn't really have a problem with > the Ad but when it > > said 8 - > > > 15 USD. I couldn't let it slide. > > > When it comes to "*jobs*" I only care if PHP > recruiters and/or > > developers in > > > NYC benefit from this list and that message didn't > benefit anyone in > > NYC. > > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Paul A Houle <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > Web wrote: > > > > > > > >> I would share this with my friends but I > don't have any friends in > > India. > > > >> Nor do I get work from India. > > > >> That's why I'm on this NEW YORK > PHP list. For New York PHP > > jobs. NEW > > > >> YORK! > > > >> Start your own IndiaPHP list. > > > >> Thank you, > > > >> > > > >> > > > > People in India don't get work from > India. A big drop in the > > dollar > > > > would be good because it would bring jobs back to > the US and > > encourage other > > > > countries to develop balanced local markets in > goods and services. > > > > > > > > There are some world-class organizations > in India, and there are > > a lot > > > > of smaller ones that aren't so good. > Overall, India tends to > > underprice > > > > software development work (and other white > collar) done in the US > > by about > > > > 2/3. In the better cases, you're > paying for more people and for > > people to > > > > manage the extra people, and get good > results. In the worst > > cases, you > > > > just get ripped. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List > > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs > > > > > > > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online > > > > http://www.nyphpcon.com > > > > > > > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP > > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Chauncey Thorn > > > PHP Developer/Systems Administrator > > > email: [email protected] > > > url: http://www.cthorn.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs > > > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online > > http://www.nyphpcon.com > > > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Chauncey Thorn > > PHP Developer/Systems Administrator > > email: [email protected] > > url: http://www.cthorn.com/ > > > > > > Since 1982, Starpoint > Solutions has been a trusted source of human capital and > solutions. We are committed to our clients, employees, > environment, community and social concerns. We foster an > inclusive culture based on trust, respect, honesty and solid > performance. Learn more about Starpoint and our social > responsibility at > http://www.starpoint.com/social_responsibility > > > > This email message from > Starpoint Solutions LLC is for the sole use of the intended > recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged > information. Any unauthorized > review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If > you are not the intended recipient, please contact the > sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original > message. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this > message that do not relate > to the official business of Starpoint Solutions shall be > understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs > > > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online > > http://www.nyphpcon.com > > > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > > > > > Since 1982, > Starpoint Solutions has been a trusted source of human > capital and solutions. We are committed to our clients, > employees, environment, community and social concerns. We > foster an inclusive culture based > on trust, respect, honesty and solid performance. Learn > more about Starpoint and our social responsibility at > http://www.starpoint.com/social_responsibility > > > > > This email message > from Starpoint Solutions LLC is for the sole use of the > intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and > privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, > disclosure or distribution is prohibited. > If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the > sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original > message. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this > message that do not relate to the official business of > Starpoint Solutions shall > be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online > http://www.nyphpcon.com > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php _______________________________________________ New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online http://www.nyphpcon.com Show Your Participation in New York PHP http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
