I had three responses to my post about Hiroshima and NYC/DC. One (off-list) thanking me for putting the writer's thoughts into words; one telling me that I should be ashamed of myself, and the third was somewhere in the middle. I am not ashamed of what I said although I will repeat here that it wasn't my intention to hurt or insult anyone. If anyone feels insulted or angry about my post, then I failed to make absolutely clear the point that I was trying to make. Let me try again. Mack said (although the parenthetical additions are mine, for clarification) >I am not happy about the people in those cities (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) but they (the >pilots) had no choice as far as I can see and I am aghast that you can now try to look >back and somehow make fun or criticize the choices they made then. Mack, I did not 'make fun' of anything; 'fun' was the last thing on my mind. Please re-read the post and tell me where I made fun of anything. Raising pertinent questions is not 'making fun'. My point is basically about objectivity and subjectivity, thrown in with a lot of ideology. What the Japanese did during WWII was terrible, inhuman, barbaric, and all the other things that Mack mentioned. Objectively. No argument there. I know that many people, myself included, think that apologies from the Japanese government are too little and too late but I believe it shows that they now fully accept the brutality of their wartime actions. The bombing of Hiroshima ended the war against Japan (which was nearly over anyway) and I guess that the majority of the Allied forces and people of the free world subjectively feel that the Hiroshima bomb was justified by the result it achieved. (Nagasaki, I believe, was unnecessary and gratuitous). I doubt very much that the civilian population of those cities and that country feels the same. Subjectively, I guess, the Japanese people would consider the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki atrocities too. One event, two contradictory viewpoints. Maybe it is 'objectively' true that the war ended because of the bombs, but this does not affect the subjective viewpoints that many people have because their political ideology has been drummed into them from an early age. If you were brought up to hate the USA and all it stands for then of course you're going to dance and cheer if they suffer from your aggression. If you were brought up to love the USA and all it stands for then of course you're going to be furious and outraged when your country suffers from other people's aggression. Similarly, if you've been brought up to love/hate the Palestinians, or Israelis, or the Iraqis, or Catholics or whoever, then of course you're going to celebrate your victories or mourn your defeats. It doesn't make it right, but is it not easy to understand how people can be seen as barbaric and yet still see themselves as heroic? Fanatics are not rational people. Don't expect them to act as you yourself would act, or think like you yourself think. Mack said: >There is absolutely no reason or justification for comparing the men of our military in >world war II to the monsters who performed yesterday. Shame on you. I say, "I accept that my comments are unjustifiable 'from your point of view'". I am not, and was not, comparing them; I'm saying that a case (however 'twisted') could be made for comparing them, or even that the WWII bombers are worse than Tuesday's attackers, but I don't want to play the numbers game. I agree with you 100 per cent that the people who planned and carried out yesterday's acts are monsters, from your point of view and mine. But from other people's points of view (not my own, I repeat) these terrorists were not monsters but heroes and martyrs. All I am saying is that we have our point of view and they have theirs. It's futile to argue who's right and who's wrong, or who's good and who's evil. That gets us nowhere. It all depends on where you stand. A final, related point which perhaps needs to be made again is that the way the USA sees itself and its world role is not universally shared. Obviously. Not everyone sees the USA as the 'good guy' any more: ask US citizens who have lived or served abroad, they are usually amazed by the criticism they hear. There are other viewpoints which may objectively be unjustifiable and abhorrent to the USA but all people base their actions on their ideological beliefs, as THEY see the situation, subjectively, terrorists included. Sorry this is not as concise as it could be. I hope I will not have to return to this matter. Like many people, I'd also like to get back to talking about music again, it seems like years ago when we were all vicariously enjoying the jonifest through the words and pictures of the listers who were lucky enough to be there. Mike.
