First things first: thank you for hearing me out, vince, and your thoughtful reply is appreciated. I believe your heart is in the right place and I very much value your friendship. To clarify, I don't "despise" eminem, whom I've never met. For all I know, he's a righteous dude...a fucking saint. I said I abhorred the star-maker propaganda and hype surrounding him, and his music product. I said and still believe that whatever his talent, it is not commensurate with the pervasive attention he's getting. In hip hop vernacular, if you will, I don't hate the playa, I just loath the game that gives him rise to the exclusion of worthy others.
I long to hear you explicate some other rap artist's body of work for a change. You'll make my day if you go out on a limb and discuss an disenfranchised black poetess with the same fervor. That bit about Jay-Z you wrote has me feeling you better already.. But be assured that, at the end of the day, I consider it your inalienable prerogative to like whatsoever you feel lead to. I'm just at a loss when I try to understand how you can set the genius bar so low. And I'm exorcised that you would be so cavalier as to ascribe respect from the entire "black community" to this self-pitying kid. Neither you, nor I, have standing to do that. As if such respect is so easily garnered. As if the African American populace is some kind of undiscriminating, homogenous flock of black sheep, eager to be lead to water by a scowling, blue-eyed shepherd boy named after a dime store chocolate that melts in your mouth, not in your hands. As if Eminem is some kind of latter day John Brown. That's what set me off. Don't do that. Please. > I am about to see Wagner's Die Walkure > which features murder, incest, and racism. Is it a great classic of > western music or do we judge it by Eminem standards? Um, what? You've lost me. You're not defending Wagner now, are you? The severely disturbed German 19th century composer, author, virulent racist and anti-Semite, whose operas are rife with thinly veiled racist and anti-Semitic subtexts? Die Walkure is a "great classic of western music" like _Mein Kampf_ is a classic of western literature. I wouldn't be caught dead at a Wagner performance. Jesus Christ, Vince. That shit is concentrated evil. I'll confine my sympathy for the devil to the Rolling Stones tour, thank you. :-) What does Die Walkure have to do with Mathers' music anyway, please? I mean, Eminem couldn't even pronounce "Wagner." With love, if not tenderness, Julius np: Beck, "Lost Cause" ----- Original Message ----- From: "vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:59 PM Subject: Re: NJC vanilla ice vs eminem > Julius, if we all liked the same thing, it would be boring. > > I disagree with your assessment of Em's music and his lyrics. > > What else to I listen to? I have listened to it all from the beginning, > as I was living in a very urban section of Kalamazoo when rap hit the > airwaves. I wouldn't term G S-H rap, by the way, although I think he is > the real first rapper. Anyway, currently in my personal heavy rotation > is Ludacris, Xzibit, Jay-Z and Obie Trice and I rather resent the > implication that I only like the rapper who is white. That I do > resent.. > > Chris Rock's joke is funny because of the truth in it. > > Eminem, in my opinion, isn't fronting, but he does flip it all right > back, hence the quote you make from "Without Me." > > Anyone can make a movie about anything, yes. So you use that > generalization to rip a movie you have not seen. And you call me > delusional. > > And obviously I cannot speak for the black community and I do apologize > for sounding like I was, if that is how it came across. While my home > is right now in rural western Michigan, I spend a lot of time in > Detroit, Chicago, and my old neighborhood in Kalamazoo. In my > experience, let me say as a qualifier, in my personal and direct > experience, the African American community here has embraced Em as > real. Perhaps it is because Michigan is his home state and he is known > here well. The wonderful thing about Eminem is that he has brought > audiences together that have been separate for way too many years. When > I saw Em in concert this summer, it was far and away the most mixed > audience I have been in since Sly and the Family Stone and that was in > 1970. It was good to see such a mixed audience again. You may call it > delusional, call me delusional as you did, my friend, but the delusion > is in thinking that music cannot bring people together. > > The people here that I know, my experience of the black community, is > that Em is the man. Again, this may be a Michigan thing. > > The charge that Em is fronting to rip off black music does offend me > because I have following this guy's career for a number of years and I > simply don't see it. Make that charge against Pat Boone, against > Vanilla Ice, against a lot of folks, it would be true. But there is > something different about Eminem, and that is my opinion, based on my > experience, and I am sticking with it. And maybe his legendary (in > Michigan) generosity with those with whom he came up with has an impact > on my opinion. He hasn't gone white. > > Dre is out for making money, sure. Aren't we all. He isn't going to > produce someone with no talent. Dre has not been Svengali to a witless > talentless white boy to front for sales, he took on a very talented > rapper who happens to be white. > > Dre doesn't need a white rapper to make money, if that is his sole > goal. Nelly makes his damned good living off of suburban whites, and > Tag Team and Sir Mixalot have certainly shown there are megabucks to be > made from rap marketed to white kids by black rappers. All rap sales > have been 75% white - Tupac and Biggy knew that too, and a part of the > whole thug thing was to make the rap the exotic and dangerous lure for > white kids. Let's keep it real here. > > Your comment on Alicia Keys - that same point is by Obie Trice on the > 8 Mile soundtrack about Lauryn Hill, "she stopped making music with > beats...". > > It just so happens that Em is one hell of a rapper and he is white. The > surprising thing may have been that it has taken so long for a white rap > star to emerge, given that Blondie was rapping back in the early 80s. > It took so long, I think, because the one who was to break through was > going to be damned, damned good, and Em is. > > And hell, Julius, all American music as we know it comes from black > sources. Name it -rock, jazz, tell em an American music form that > doesn't have African American roots. Can no white person play jazz? > can no white person sing the blues? (Well, maybe not well) Can no > white person sing Johnny B. Goode? At what point does it cease being > race music and become part of the culture for all? When can a white > person rap? Was it the same crime when Joni sang Mingus? How long do > you keep the music limited to one racial group? If music doesn't > broaden us and bring people together then what the fuck good is it? > > The real problem, that neither one of us responded to, was the person > who posted this week that rap wasn't music at all, which is a huge > denial of a music form that arose from the streets. That to me was > racist. That's where your argument may be, not with me, I humbly > suggest. I am offering a validation of rap as real music. > > Hey, when Mary J. Blige sings, I don't think race, I think, raw, pure, > total talent. I get the same feeling from Eminem. And the same was > true for Elvis. Except Elvis left the black community behind. Em has > continued to work with the people he knew in the day, His values are > old school. He has not gone white. He is still hood. > > Whenever someone says, "Have you stopped to think..." I know the insult > is there, you are saying, i don't think. Hell, Julius, I am a 50 year > old gay man who has seasons tickets for the Lyric Opera and spend time > on the streets, I've been to street corner battles, I have lived in the > hood , I am not predisposed to rap, but I heard it all the time from my > neighbors, my clients, my friends, and I got into it. I can never be > black, but I can be very intentional and serious about the music I like > and the music I tout and the genius that I recognize. > > The best bass in the last century was not some European star, it was > Paul Robeson. One can argue Leotyne Price at the top of her field. > Music transcends race. the best rapper is white. > > And in the end, I am sick unto death of the old tired charges against > Em's lyrics. Mike in barcelona has just shown us a whole slew of music > that contains violent images. I am about to see Wagner's Die Walkure > which features murder, incest, and racism. Is it a great classic of > western music or do we judge it by Eminem standards? Em would win that > - look to all of the words on all the album before you pick and pull out > of context. Yeah, Stan is a violent lunatic who desperately needs help > and kills his girlfriend - and Stan is not the hero, in Em's own voice > he warns that the guy needs help, that he needs to control to anger, > that he has to stop acting out - > > Today in my office was a young woman beaten by her boyfriend, badly, > this woman a member of the wedding party of Gage's mother, and I know > that the violence against Robin was done by some Stan-like idiot, the > whole scene probably sounded like the track Kim - and I wish I could > grab that fucker and make him listen to Eminem who tells the world that > people who commit violence against women are losers, that it hs to stop, > that it is sickness, it must stop. > > Oh, but those anti-violence lyrics, Em's real words on that subject are > never broadcast because then Lynne Chenny and Tipper Gore and Joe > Lieberman and all the watchdogs of our morals from the Christian right > wouldn't be able to pillory Eminem - who is a target because he is > white, they haven't the guts to take on Ludacris and risk charges of > racism so they go after the white guy - and demonize by pulling out a > line here, a line there, out of context. You have bought into the > American Family Association Christian right Lynne Cheney fund raising > cries of alarm about bad, bad Eminem. > > Em opened his last tour with clips of all the congressional hearing > where he was denounced over and over and over for the same tired old > things. (The New Yorker suggests their real opposition to Em is in his > bridging racial barriers in a way that is not Bush like.) The irony is, > everyone worked up over Em, and maybe they should have been a bit more > worried about Al Queda... but that doesn't get nice coverage on the > evening news until after September 11th. Attacking Em did. > > In the end, Julius, you may despise Em for any reason. I can't really > get into jazz or country. We all have our things where it doesn't work > for us. And we haven't always had the deepest and lengthiest of > conversations, but we have always been cool together. I do resent the > implication of my having a preference for Em because he is white - hell, > I have seen Xzibit and Ludacris and Executioner and Bionic Jive too, > this past summer, and seen my share of my black rappers, who I like a > lot, and I saw the Rolling Stones who made their fortune mining black > music. But the Stones have done it with an all white band. Em > continues to work with his homies. Let's get real as you say, Despise > Em for whatever reason you want. And if your obviously far more real > experience in your community brings you into contact with people who > feel differently than my contacts, maybe again, it is a Michigan thing, > or just that I am hanging with people with whom I share common opinions, > as you are. > > But I stand by my opinion that the man is a genius, a master, a person > who transcends in his word play and in his music. And I respect him > because he always credits those with whom he has developed his craft, > In his own world, he has street cred. At least that is so. For the > rest, again, if we all liked the same things, how fucking dull the world > would be, and the ability to exchange the frankest of opinions in this > forum is a testimony to the strength of this community and as you > disagree with me, so I disagree with you, but i trust we remain embraced > in friendship for the things we hold in common and our common love of > life. I bear you no ill will Julius for taking me to task, I have > responded, and as they say, Peace Out! > > Vince
