on 11/23/02 6:17 AM, johnirving at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > The essence of poetry is verbal and conceptual density.
Whose definition is this, John? Why do you say this? > Joni Mitchell's lyrics are certainly poetic and beautiful. Beautiful > enough to warrant contemplation and reading. But they are not poetry. > The Complete Poems and Lyrics does not work as a stand alone book of > poetry, in spite of the artful cover and title. It is an unsatifying > read as a book of poetry. Perhaps a professor of English could speak at > length to the whys better than I can. Perhaps. As a poet and a longtime reader of poetry, I find the book very satisfying. Granted, I would guess that readers of Schiller may find something lacking when they read "Ode to Joy." Yes, it's the Beethoven that is missing. But it's still a poem. > I am partnered with a Poet. (He just handed me that passage, btw...) > With over 200,000 books in the house (!!!), I can't move from room to > room without tripping over Poetry in one form or another. From the early > Greeks to the most contemporary writers, he's read it all. I know > exactly what HE would say if I asked him if Joni were a poet. I would be interested to know exactly what he would say. Perhaps you would be kind enough to ask him for us. > Actually, he didn't effort a grunt when I posed the question to him. Perhaps you could ask him again. And if he says that she is not a poet, might you ask him to explain why he believes that? > I'm not sure why we would want to cast Joni's lyrics in such an > unflattering light as to put them in the realm of Poetry. Especially on > the heels of her brilliant triumph T'log. These lyrics are among the > most brilliant song lyrics in the history of mankind. As poetry, Wiliam > Meredith or Donald Justice is running nuclear rings around this stuff. > Why pale her work by such comparison? I would venture to say that many would prefer Joni's poetry to that of Meredith or Justice (or my favorite, Ashberry). The truth is that their poetry is rarely read outside of academic circles. The truth is, in fact, that poetry is rarely read these days at all. Much of it is simply too abstruse for the average reader. For most people today, the poems of their everyday lives are written as lyrics. I do understand the distinction that you and Franklin are attempting to make between poetry and lyrics, between Joni's writing and that of contemporary academic poets. But the distinction is specious. It's all poetry. > Certainly, her painting is lovely and I wouldn't have her put her > brushes down for a moment. Some of her pieces are downright > magnificent... As a singer/composer she is not only one of the top 20 > human beings among the billions living, but billions in the entire > history of the planet as well. As a painter, the peers her equal or > better, just in the southern Cal area alone would populate a small city. > (Not to cast dispersions on her art. Just a statement of how many good > artists there are out there doing good stuff.) If my math is correct, that would mean that there are about 70 million painters worldwide producing pieces that are "downright magnificent." > I would rather contempate her work for what it is: Popular song raised to it's > highest zeinith. You mean like the Iliad? This all comes down to the ongoing dialogue about high art vs. popular art. Everyone draws his or her own borderlines. I'm open to whatever comments you want to make about Joni's or anyone's work. But the argument that Poetry or Painting can only exist within one's own personal borders does not advance understanding, IMO. Best, David
