Hello Scott. I see the bug "An unsupported operation was attempted". That bug was fixed. (Sorry, I modified the class CDevicePropsBasic for another goal and forget that it used in PC icon properties.)
I will implement the thing you asked: > Also, when Kaboodle starts up, if it's the first > Kaboodle device on the LAN, it should set itself as the > Kaboodle Master Node. - Igor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott C. Best" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Igor Kotelevsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Kaboodle-devel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 7:53 PM Subject: Re: Master node - "Remote Networks" tab > Igor: > So when I right-click on a PC icon now, I get a > popup: "An unsupported operation was attempted". The the > PropPanel opens. if I choose the "Make this PC the Kaboodle > Master" checkbox, then everytime I hit "OK", I get the same > error. > Also, when Kaboodle starts up, if it's the first > Kaboodle device on the LAN, it should set itself as the > Kaboodle Master Node. > > thanks, > Scott > > On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Igor Kotelevsky wrote: > > > Hello Scott. > > I implemented changes of "Remote Networks" tab like you asked: > > > 1... For now, > > > please let the user install a Partnership file and be able > > > to use the connect button. However, if the user does either > > > on a machine that is not the Master node, just warn them > > > with a MessageBox: "This Kaboodle PC is not selected to be > > > the Kaboodle Master Node for your network. Please be sure > > > that this Partnership file is installed on <Dad's PC> as well." > > There are several details: > > A. If the user pushes the "Connect" button > > on a machine that is not the Master node, > > then them warn with above the MessageBox, > > where <Dad's PC> is the *First Name*. > > B. If the user pushes the "Create New Partnership" button > > on a machine that is not the Master node, > > then them warn with above the MessageBox with exactly your text. > > (Here no full understanding about what *Partnership file* goes speech.) > > C. Both MessageBoxs #A, #B have only the button "OK", > > because you said: > > > just warn them... > > Though I prefer to see two buttons "OK" and "CANCEL" > > in corresponding events. > > - Igor > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Scott C. Best" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Igor Kotelevsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: "Kaboodle-devel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 10:06 AM > > Subject: Re: Master node > > > > > > > Igor: > > > Thanks for looking into the CPU bug. I will be out of > > > town for the rest of the week, but I'm hoping you can finish > > > these two tasks: > > > > > > 1. In the future, the NID will be in XML format. When that > > > happens, we'll fix the Master Node functionality. For now, > > > please let the user install a Partnership file and be able > > > to use the connect button. However, if the user does either > > > on a machine that is not the Master node, just warn them > > > with a MessageBox: "This Kaboodle PC is not selected to be > > > the Kaboodle Master Node for your network. Please be sure > > > that this Partnership file is installed on <Dad's PC> as well." > > > > > > 2. In the Network Icon in the upper left, please add a drop down > > > menu: "Kaboodle Master Node: <Dad's PC>" where similar to the > > > file-transfer, I can choose one of the Kaboodle aliases to be > > > the Master Node for my LAN. Also, in the PropPanel for a > > > Kaboodle PC, please delete everything under "Operating System" > > > including "access control", "security", etc. The only checkbox > > > there should be "Make this PC the Kaboodle Master Node". > > > > > > thanks, > > > Scott > > > > > > On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, Igor Kotelevsky wrote: > > > > > > > Hello Scott. > > > > I implemented devices recreating > > > > if new NID data contains really new data only. > > > > That code's changing reduces *Kaboodle pulls 100-percent of CPU* > > > > and reduces visual blink of Kaboodle's window also. > > > > - Igor > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Igor Kotelevsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "Scott C. Best" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Cc: "Kaboodle-devel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 1:15 PM > > > > Subject: Re: Master node > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Scott. > > > > > A. I see some kind of *Kaboodle pulls 100-percent of CPU* > > > > > when Kaboodle rebuilds a NID topology only. > > > > > That may be a result of own LAN-discovery, or a result of partner's > > NID > > > > > updating. > > > > > In both these events Kaboodle always deletes all devices and creates > > new > > > > > devices. > > > > > At 15 Jule I wrote about that > > > > > > > > > > > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=892614&forum_id=7057 > > > > > I'll try implement devices recreating if new NID data contains really > > new > > > > > data only. > > > > > > > > > > B. You wrote: > > > > > > Please do *not* pursue the adding of array variable > > > > > > length data into the _NID_DEVICE_ATTRIBS structure. > > > > > I don't know how it's possible to implement > > > > > > > > > If a user looks at the partnerships in "Remote Networks" using > > a > > > > > > > > > non-Master node, it would read: "These are the Partnerships > > > > > > > > > currently installed on "Dad's PC", the current Kaboodle > > Master". > > > > > without adding above array. > > > > > > > > > > - Igor > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Scott C. Best" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: "Igor Kotelevsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Cc: "Kaboodle-devel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 11:22 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: Master node > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igor: > > > > > > Please look into the CPU usage bug in the current CVS > > > > > > snapshot first. In WinNT, Kaboodle pulls 100-percent of CPU > > > > > > time after running for a few minutes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please do *not* pursue the adding of array variable > > > > > > length data into the _NID_DEVICE_ATTRIBS structure. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Scott > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, Igor Kotelevsky wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Scott. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FIRST. > > > > > > > The GetEngaged implemented as you asked: > > > > > > > If a PC isn't a "Master Node" when GetEngaged start, > > > > > > > then it shows a MessageBox: > > > > > > > *This PC isn't a "Master Node"* > > > > > > > *Continue a registration ?*. > > > > > > > There are two buttons "YES\NO". > > > > > > > If a user pushes "YES" then the registration continues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SECOND. > > > > > > > There is a problem with implementation of your things #1, #2 and > > #3. > > > > > > > That implementation requires an adding of array variable-length > > data > > > > > into > > > > > > > the structure _NID_DEVICE_ATTRIBS. > > > > > > > The Problem is concluded in that the structure _NID_DEVICE_ATTRIBS > > > > > > > is used in style C language, rather then in style C++ language. > > > > > > > There is no a copy construction and is no some kind of > > serialization > > > > as > > > > > > > member of that structure in the source code. > > > > > > > Instead of these there is broadly used > > > > > > > an operation of direct adduction of address a non-typified > > memories to > > > > > > > pointer on structure > > > > > > > and an operation of direct copying a non-typified to memories by > > size > > > > > > > sizeof(_NID_DEVICE_ATTRIBS). > > > > > > > All above things don't allow simply insert the array > > variable-length > > > > > data > > > > > > > into the structure. > > > > > > > There isn't a problem to add both the copy construction and the > > > > > > > serialization as member of that structure. > > > > > > > Problem is concluded in changing of all > > > > > > > *an operation of direct adduction of address a non-typified > > memories > > > > to > > > > > > > pointer on structure* on > > > > > > > *a copy construction* > > > > > > > and all > > > > > > > *and an operation of direct copying a non-typified to memories* on > > > > > > > *serialization as member of that structure*. > > > > > > > There are very many such places in the source code (around several > > > > > > > hundreds). > > > > > > > This work will require plenty of debugging. > > > > > > > The problem becomes complicated that this work cannot execute by > > > > parts. > > > > > > > I expect that this work require approximately week of time. > > > > > > > Please let me to know if I must execute above work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Igor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Igor Kotelevsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > To: "Scott C. Best" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > Cc: "Kaboodle-devel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:10 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Master node > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Scott. > > > > > > > > I'll implement your things #1, #2 and #3. > > > > > > > > Also I'll implement a modification of GetEngaged.exe: > > > > > > > > > ...Perhaps we should modify > > > > > > > > > GetEngaged.exe instead, to warn users when they install a > > > > > Partnership > > > > > > > > > file into a non-Master Kaboodle instance. > > > > > > > > - Igor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: "Scott C. Best" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > To: "Igor Kotelevsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > Cc: "Kaboodle-devel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 11:29 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Master node > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igor: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Scott. > > > > > > > > > > A. About *ping*. > > > > > > > > > > The things you asked implemented: > > > > > > > > > > > The Kaboodle Master Node handles all of these types. The > > > > > > > > > > > non-Master nodes should do *only* #3, the Refresh button > > > > pings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > B. About *"Connect" button*. > > > > > > > > > > You asked: > > > > > > > > > > > Would it be possible that the "Connect" button still > > works, > > > > > > > > > > > but only Partnerships that are known the Master Node can > > be > > > > > > > initiated? > > > > > > > > > > I don't see how that can be implemented. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You could do it like this: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The partnerships listed in "Remote Networks" would be the > > same > > > > > > > > > for every Kaboodle instance on the LAN: it would be NID > > sync'd > > > > > > > > > data taken from the Kaboodle Master Node. It would *not* be > > > > taken > > > > > > > > > from locally installed Partnership files except in the case > > of > > > > > > > > > the Master Node. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. If a user looks at the partnerships in "Remote Networks" > > using > > > > a > > > > > > > > > non-Master node, it would read: "These are the Partnerships > > > > > > > > > currently installed on "Dad's PC", the current Kaboodle > > > > Master". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Any Kaboodle instance on the LAN could initiate the VPN > > > > > connection > > > > > > > > > using intra-Kaboodle messaging. That is, a non-Master node > > > > would > > > > > > > > > signal the Master-Node to initiate a VPN. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now the "Remote Networks" tab works as following. > > > > > > > > > > If Kaboodle isn't a "Master Node", then only button "Create > > New > > > > > > > > Partnership" > > > > > > > > > > is grayed out > > > > > > > > > > and the tab has the text > > > > > > > > > > *This PC is not a* > > > > > > > > > > *"Master Node",* > > > > > > > > > > *so the button* > > > > > > > > > > *"Create New Partnership"* > > > > > > > > > > *is grayed out* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think this is a good idea anymore. I want users to > > > > > > > > > be able to create Partnerships easily. Perhaps we should > > modify > > > > > > > > > GetEngaged.exe instead, to warn users when they install a > > > > > Partnership > > > > > > > > > file into a non-Master Kaboodle instance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Scott > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > From: "Scott C. Best" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > To: "Igor Kotelevsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > Cc: "Kaboodle-devel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:25 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Master node > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igor: > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, I should clarify: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A. About *ping*. > > > > > > > > > > > > At Tuesday, October 01, 2002 4:45 AM you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. When Kaboodle starts up, it asks the LAN for a > > NID. > > > > > If > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it doesn't get one, it builds one *and* it > > sets > > > > > itself > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as the Master Node. Correct? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When Kaboodle starts up, it asks the LAN for a NID > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *only* if it's Master Node. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, Kaboodle should always ask the LAN for a NID > > > > > > > > > > > > > when it starts up. It should not matter if it's the > > first > > > > > time > > > > > > > > > > > > > or the seventh time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. When I hit "Refresh" on a PC that's not the > > Master > > > > > Node, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it still pings all of the Class-C's that it > > knows > > > > > about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I hit "Refresh" on a PC that's not the Master > > Node, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it didn't pings at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It should. A non-Master Kaboodle should ping the LAN > > when > > > > > > > > > > > > > the user hits "refresh". > > > > > > > > > > > > I implemented things #1, #2 as your asked. > > > > > > > > > > > > At Wednesday, September 25, 2002 9:36 AM you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Only the master node pings... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kaboodle has four "types" of pings: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. When Kaboodle starts up, if it fails to get a NID from > > the > > > > > LAN, > > > > > > > > > > > it pings all of the Class-C's it can auto-detect (and > > it > > > > sets > > > > > > > > > > > itself as the Master Node). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. When a new device is "sniffed" and is added to the NID, > > the > > > > > > > > > > > Kaboodle Master Node should ping all of the Class-C > > subnets > > > > > > > > > > > it knows about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. When the user hits Refresh in Kaboodle, that Kaboodle > > > > > instance > > > > > > > > > > > should ping all of the Class-C subnets it knows about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Every 5 seconds, the Kaboodle Master Node should ping > > the > > > > > > > > > > > devices known to be in its "active list" to see if > > they're > > > > > > > > > > > still active. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Kaboodle Master Node handles all of these types. The > > > > > > > > > > > non-Master nodes should do *only* #3, the Refresh button > > > > pings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > B. About *restart*. > > > > > > > > > > > > At Friday, September 27, 2002 8:11 PM you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds good except for the "after PC restarts" idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since it's just a NID status setting, I don't think > > > > > > > > > > > > > a restart is required at all. If a VPN is active, the > > user > > > > > > > > > > > > > should get a message saying "The Master Node status > > will > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > > > changed after your GetEngaged partner disconnects". If > > > > there > > > > > > > > > > > > > is no VPN active, the switch should happen > > immediately. > > > > > > > > > > > > These things are implemented. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also I implemented following. > > > > > > > > > > > > If PC is not a "Master Node", > > > > > > > > > > > > then both buttons "Connect" and "Create New Partnership" > > > > > > > > > > > > on the "Remote Networks" tab are grayed out and that tab > > has > > > > > > > > > > > > the text > > > > > > > > > > > > *This PC is not a* *"Master Node",* > > > > > > > > > > > > *so both buttons "Connect" and "Create* > > > > > > > > > > > > *New Partnership" are* *grayed out* > > > > > > > > > > > > Please let me know what you think about that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure about this. Would it be possible that the > > > > > > > > > > > "Connect" button still works, but only Partnerships that > > are > > > > > known > > > > > > > > > > > to the Master Node can be initiated? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > C. ZeBeDee bug. > > > > > > > > > > > > I see a bug (both Win2000 and Win98): > > > > > > > > > > > > - I try to make remote network connection. > > > > > > > > > > > > - I didn't have ZeBeDee component on both Kaboodles. > > > > > > > > > > > > - I push the button "Connect" in "Remote Networks" tab. > > > > > > > > > > > > - I see the MessageBox > > > > > > > > > > > > *Sorry... Kaboodle could not start Zebedee on your PC. > > This > > > > > > > > connection > > > > > > > > > > > > will be in View-Only"...* > > > > > > > > > > > > - After that I get "debug assertion failed" > > > > > > > > > > > > - Kaboodle crash > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yup, that's a bug. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Scott > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Scott C. Best" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: "Igor Kotelevsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: "Kaboodle-devel" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 4:45 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Master node > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igor: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heya. Some quick feedback: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since it's just a NID status setting, I don't > > think > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a restart is required at all. If a VPN is active, > > the > > > > > user > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should get a message saying "The Master Node > > status > > > > will > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > changed after your GetEngaged partner > > disconnects". If > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is no VPN active, the switch should happen > > > > immediately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll implement above. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. When Kaboodle starts up, it asks the LAN for a > > NID. > > > > > If > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it doesn't get one, it builds one *and* it sets > > > > > itself > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as the Master Node. Correct? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When Kaboodle starts up, it asks the LAN for a NID > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *only* if it's Master Node. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, Kaboodle should always ask the LAN for a NID > > > > > > > > > > > > > when it starts up. It should not matter if it's the > > first > > > > > time > > > > > > > > > > > > > or the seventh time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. When I hit "Refresh" on a PC that's not the > > Master > > > > > Node, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it still pings all of the Class-C's that it > > knows > > > > > about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I hit "Refresh" on a PC that's not the Master > > Node, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it didn't pings at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It should. A non-Master Kaboodle should ping the LAN > > when > > > > > > > > > > > > > the user hits "refresh". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Scott > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, Igor Kotelevsky wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Scott. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Master node" implemented as following: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Only the master node pings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Only the master node connects with Gnutella > > to > > > > the > > > > > > > > GetEngaged > > > > > > > > > > > > > > servers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. A user can change the "Master node" status > > > > (on/off) > > > > > in > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > bottom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > part of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "System Info" tab. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. That changing will take effect after PC > > restarts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A user'll see a respective MessageBox - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Your settings will take effect after PC* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *<PcName> restarts*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. The "Master node" status is a part of NID > > data. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A user can see and change that status as for > > itself > > > > as > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > others > > > > > > > > > > > > PC's. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Igor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Scott C. Best" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: "Igor Kotelevsky" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 9:36 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: 21 Sept bug report > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The "master node" setup. Only the master > > node > > > > > pings. > > > > > > > > Only > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the master node connects with Gnutella to > > the > > > > > > > > GetEngaged > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > servers. Registration and Partnership files > > > > only > > > > > need > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be installed on the master node. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf _______________________________________________ Kaboodle-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/kaboodle-devel
