(On top of what Paul said, if this happens, should we also stop with the Reddit and Facebook management, since it’s a closed source software on for profit companies?)
On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 at 03:41 Paul Brown <paul.br...@kde.org> wrote: > On Tuesday, 22 August 2023 22:08:34 CEST Albert Vaca Cintora wrote: > > KDE Connect has a Telegram group with 660 members (vs 100 on matrix). I > > don't know if we are the exception > > It's not. Kdenlive is another example where most users on both the Spanish > and > English channels are largely on Telegram. I think you will find that > developers > tend to gravitate towards IRC and maybe Matrix, but end users gravitate > towards Telegram and don't really want to open another account on yet > another > IM platform. > > But let me try to highlight some of the issues with this proposed plan (as > is) > with some questions: > > If we cut off hundreds of users from the rest of the community, will this > action help or damage KDE's relevancy among end users? Will it increase or > decrease the rate of adoption of our software? > > It has been mentioned that this was discussed at a BoF and on a mailing > list. > How many end users, say, from the KDE Connect and Kdenlive user channels > on > Telegram do you estimate attended the Bof and how many do you estimate > regularly read the mailing lists? > > Is it right to make this decision behind the backs of the people who will > be > most affected? > > How does this plan fit in with KDE's vision, mission and manifesto, all > three > of which insist we take into account the users and their needs over most > other > things? > > As a reminder: > > https://community.kde.org/KDE/Vision > https://community.kde.org/index.php?title=KDE/Mission > https://manifesto.kde.org/ > > If you have a healthy growing community of end users, already in the > hundreds, > probably surpassing a thousand users, is it sensible to cut it off? > > Moving on to the schedule, do you think, we, the channel mods and admins, > can > realistically migrate hundreds of people to a completely new platform they > probably even haven't heard of in less than a month? Do we get time to eat > and > sleep? > > Do you think cutting users off will be a convincing argument that will > encourage most of the people to migrate? > > Have you thought of other strategies we can use that will render better > results? If so, would you mind sharing them? > > How many of the links to Telegram peppered all through our web pages have > you > removed and changed to point to Matrix? > > If none (it is none, isn't it?), shouldn't have this been one of your > first > actions, to curb incoming new users away from Telegram to Matrix? Why did > you > not think of this? > > In view of your prior answers, do you think maybe this "plan" may not be > much > of a plan at all, that maybe it is simplistic, even harebrained, > unrealistic > and insensitive, and, if forced through, you may hurt the community in > ways > that will take years to repair? > > Cheers > > Paul > > > > > > with such a big group on Telegram, but > > this is going to be a hit to our community :( > > > > On Tue, 22 Aug 2023, 09:02 Joseph P. De Veaugh-Geiss, <jos...@kde.org> > > > > wrote: > > > Hello KDE community, > > > > > > apologies for cross-posting! > > > > > > The time has finally come: both Telegram <-> Matrix bridges will be > shut > > > down in 4 weeks on *Wednesday 20 September*. Let's start the > > > co-ordination process now so everything goes as smoothly as possible. > > > > > > For all KDE contributors: please read at least the "Five To-Dos" below > > > to be informed about what will happen and what needs to be done. > > > > > > Below that there is some additional information about the bridging > > > situation at KDE. Consult these notes if you want more background > > > information about why the Telegram bridge is being retired. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Joseph > > > > > > _Five To-Dos_ > > > > > > 1. *General*: On Wednesday 20 September the Telegram bridging to KDE > > > > > > Matrix rooms will be shut down. To make the transition go smoothly, > > > teams should start co-ordinating for the shutdown now. The Matrix room > > > for co-ordination is "Telegram shutdown co-ordination" at > > > https://go.kde.org/matrix/#/#telegram-shutdown:kde.org. > > > > > > 2. *Co-ordination*: This includes: (i) migrating all contributors to > > > > > > Matrix, and (ii) deleting the Telegram rooms before the bridge is > > > shutdown or -- at most -- one day after the shutdown. Keeping Telegram > > > rooms open when they are no longer being used will cause unnecessary > > > confusion. Importantly, do not later add a non-KDE Telegram bridge to > > > KDE's Matrix rooms as that will not solve the problems from doubled > user > > > accounts and lack of control over Telegram; see below for operational > > > issues with Telegram bridging. > > > > > > 3. *Action needed by Telegram room admins*: Due to the unexpected > > > > > > shutdown of the public Libera.Chat bridge, we will have to move rooms > > > over to the matterbridge (ircsomebot) bridge as we work through moving > > > channels over to our own Libera.Chat IRC bridge. This will require > > > someone with admin in the Telegram room to ensure @ircsomebot is in the > > > Telegram room with admin. This needs to be done after we unbridge the > > > Matrix bridge from the Matrix side, so the room can continue to be > > > bridged until the Telegram shutdown on 20 September. > > > > > > 4. *Are there exceptions?": There /may/ be some rooms that focus on > > > > > > interacting with people external to the KDE Community who would benefit > > > by having a Telegram bridge. We are thinking teams like those involved > > > in the KDE Network program: https://community.kde.org/The_KDE_Network. > > > Not all will need an exception, and it may turn out most don't. We > would > > > like to start putting together a list of these rooms so we can review > > > for potential exceptions and estimate the scale of how much support is > > > needed. However, this should be kept to a minimum; see below for > > > operational issues with Telegram bridging. We understand that there are > > > large internal KDE communities which rely heavily on Telegram, and we > > > understand that shutting down the Telegram bridge is less than ideal > for > > > these rooms, but the issues we have with the Telegram bridge mean we > > > need to keep exceptions to a minimum and only for those teeams whose > > > work has a primarily external focus. > > > > > > 5. *Getting a Matrix account*: We can offer KDE Contributors > (usually > > > > > > those in the developers group, but will consider other requests) a > > > Matrix account on our KDE Matrix Homeserver. To request an account > > > please file a sysadmin ticket https://go.kde.org/systickets. However, > as > > > Matrix is federated you do not need to have an account on our > homeserver > > > to access KDE's Matrix rooms -- you can use any homeserver! A list of > > > some alternative Matrix servers is available on > > > https://joinmatrix.org/servers/. > > > > > > To co-ordinate with other teams to make this transition go as smoothly > > > as possible, please reach out to the "Telegram shutdown co-ordination" > > > Matrix room: https://go.kde.org/matrix/#/#telegram-shutdown:kde.org. > > > > > > _Additional Information Re Bridges_ > > > > > > * Four years ago it was decided to add Matrix to IRC as KDE's > > > > > > official IM platforms (bridged together). IRC is not planned to be shut > > > down. > > > > > > * Telegram is not Free Software and has never been an official > > > > > > platform for KDE communications. However, it has been used unofficially > > > in a number of areas. > > > > > > * EMS hosts KDE's Matrix instance and the current Telegram bridge, > > > > > > and the majority of issues our community have with Matrix are related > to > > > bridges. Due to the huge extra load and poor performance Telegram > > > bridging has in the Matrix rooms, it was agreed with EMS that the > bridge > > > would be only run for about a year until people had time to migrate to > > > Matrix. > > > > > > * However, instead of people migrating away from Telegram, we have > > > > > > seen an increase in contributors using /both/ Matrix and Telegram, > which > > > has doubled the number of users we have to cope with. Having twice as > > > many users as needed in the room slows everything down: longer joins, > > > more state events for each user, higher chances of room state > developing > > > problems. > > > > > > * The public Libera.Chat bridge was unexpectedly shutdown, and we > > > > > > have to move rooms over to the matterbridge (ircsomebot) bridge as we > > > work through moving channels over to our own Libera.Chat IRC bridge. > > > This is not as originally planned, which was to migrate to that IRC > > > bridge after the Telegram shutdown. > > > > > > * The vast majority of spam is from Telegram. Due to the Telegram > > > > > > bridge account being reported for spam, the account has lost the > ability > > > to do admin tasks in many rooms. At its worst the account was blocked > > > from logging in for weeks, making the bridge non-functional. Since > then, > > > rooms often can't be bridged without deleting the Telegram room and > > > starting fresh, but this only has about a 30% success of working > > > long-term. We did not get anywhere attempting to get Telegram to help. > > > > > > * The current Telegram bridge doesn't work properly so it makes > sense > > > > > > to shut it down rather than trying to just change account phone numbers > > > (which would require removing the bridge from all channels then > > > re-adding to a new bridge, with high chance we end up in the same > > > situation in the future). > > > > > > -- > > > Joseph P. De Veaugh-Geiss > > > KDE Internal Communications & KDE Eco Community Manager > > > OpenPGP: 8FC5 4178 DC44 AD55 08E7 DF57 453E 5746 59A6 C06F > > > Matrix: @joseph:kde.org > > > > > > Generally available Monday-Thursday from 10-16h CET/CEST. Outside of > > > these times it may take a little longer for me to respond. > > > > > > KDE Eco: Building Energy-Efficient Free Software! > > > Website: https://eco.kde.org > > > Mastodon: @be4foss@floss.social > > > -- > Promotion & Communication > > www: https://kde.org > Mastodon: https://floss.social/@kde > Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kde/ > Twitter: https://twitter.com/kdecommunity > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/kde > > >