Hi Thomas,
I hope you are aware that my proposal is a technical solution and not
a social one. I cannot predict the social aspects of it. More
specifically, it is mechanism that allows for solutions to problems.
If the problem is "two things from different DEs have the same name",
then a direct solution to the problem is "make the names different".
And I have proposed a mechanism for doing exactly that, and doing it
in a simple an intuitive way.
Moreover, the mechanism is really generic as it would apply to all
keys in a .desktop file, not only a Name, so you can't ever claim that
it's a hack.
> If an application has a different name under different DEs, that's not
> "abuse" but error by design (sorry, i don't mean to be offensive)
Just no. It's abuse by the application author.
Additionally, please stop arguing my solution based on purely
hypothetical cases. Applications DON'T AND WOULD NOT have different
names under different DEs, except for the very few specific cases
where disambiguation is required.
> > This doesn't solve the original problem.
> Yes it does. They will certainly not share the same binary name or
> we've a _real_ problem. (Or not, since there will be only one target
> for the application link anyway ;-)
I'm not too sure what solution you're arguing here for, but I believe
that if you looked at this specific case (in particular the .dekstop
files) with a little more detail you would realize you're talking
nonsense.
> To repeat the example, if translator (a) translates the KDE .desktop
> file, translator (b) the gnome one and they don't coordinate
> ...
I'm pretty sure all the translators problems would be solved by
mailing all translators something like:
"Please take a look at systemsettings.desktop, and choose the
Specific-KDE-Name translation to what the System Settings application
should be called from within KDE (probably what was previously used
for Name), and then choose the Name translation to what the System
Settings application should be called from other desktop environments,
which would probably mention KDE somewhere for disambiguation with the
other desktop's settings application."
possibly mentioning other clashing cases.
> -> If clashes are (apparently) an existing problem, they need to be
> avoided at the end of the chain where they can be spotted for sure and
> not on the start where we just hope we (and everybody else!) did
> everything ok
My proposal does not provide a mechanism for detecting clashes, only
one for resolving them. I'm sure that with a little attention from
application developers and listening to users, relevant clashes will
quickly be detected (as was the System Settings case).
Regards,
Ambroz
On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 9:10 PM, Thomas Lübking
<thomas.luebk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Ambroz, (and everybody else of course)
>
> Am Tue, 26 Jul 2011 20:39:27 +0200
> schrieb Ambroz Bizjak <ambr...@gmail.com>:
>
>> Yes, that is what this extension would allow. It's a powerful tool,
>> and any powerful tool can be abused.
> If an application has a different name under different DEs, that's not
> "abuse" but error by design (sorry, i don't mean to be offensive)
> Leaving aside systemsettings, what if i tell somebody to run marble
> ("it's like google-earth!") but he then starts some solitaire game
> (because there is eg. a solitaire game like this on "OtherDE" and
> marble is named "KDE's google-earth clone" ;-) he'll be pissed and i'll
> be lost.
>
>> This doesn't solve the original problem.
> Yes it does. They will certainly not share the same binary name or
> we've a _real_ problem. (Or not, since there will be only one target
> for the application link anyway ;-)
>
> It would also be possible to choose "System Settings" as generic name
> and "KDE Settings" as non generic one. The latter would only be
> presented for clarification (if the runner wanted)
>
>> It is also harder to implement, and the behavior is non-obvious.
> a) "i don't think so"
> b) that's not an excuse.
>
>> My proposal is not tied to English in any way.
> No, but it is tied to the ppl, knowing about an and resolving an actual
> clash which i doubt translators can be expected to be.
>> The individual Specific-DE-
> I wasn't restricting my concerns to the "we already know about an
> existing clash in LANG=C".
> The very same issue can _easily_ arise onlny in a particular
> translation.
>
> To repeat the example, if translator (a) translates the KDE .desktop
> file, translator (b) the gnome one and they don't coordinate, they
> might pick the very same translation for "control center" and "system
> settings" (unless as mentioned there's a trademark in the string what
> renders the entire approach useless since that could be added
> automatically anyway)
> This might happen even though there are similar strings in German
> (surprise, since english is just degene... strike that ;-) because as
> mentioned the translators might have other references in mind.
> In other languages there might not even be any variants of this item.
>
> -> If clashes are (apparently) an existing problem, they need to be
> avoided at the end of the chain where they can be spotted for sure and
> not on the start where we just hope we (and everybody else!) did
> everything ok.
>
> Cheers,
> Thomas
>
