Hi Dick, This is not my fight. I almost was typing in a reply, but I think it is in KiCads' best interest to not begin a quarrel. I just wanted to note a few things: - I agree, we disagree on almost all points and as my comments did not convince you otherwise, neither did yours. - I agree when you are right saying you are a major shareholder and as I told you I do appreciate the efforts put into KiCad by you and everyone else.
So it seems we can reach some form of agreement. A dutch saying goes like this: "Hoge bomen vangen veel wind". Since I doubt google will give an accurate translating, and I am unaware (at least at the moment) of the English equivalent, you can roughly translate this to: "Those who step forward and put in a lot of effort are most likely to receive criticism". It does not state whether that is fair or not. Sincerely yours, Martijn On Sep 28, 2011, at 1:08 AM, Dick Hollenbeck wrote: > On 09/27/2011 03:33 AM, Martijn Kuipers wrote: >> On Sep 27, 2011, at 12:33 AM, Brian Sidebotham wrote: >> >>> On 27 September 2011 00:22, Dick Hollenbeck <d...@softplc.com> wrote: >>>> On 09/26/2011 05:04 PM, Fred Cooke wrote: >>>>> Yes it absolutely is constructive criticism, it points out weaknesses, >>>>> explains why they >>>>> are weaknesses, and explains how to do it better. Sounds EXACTLY like >>>>> constructive >>>>> criticism to me, Dick. Your name could not be more fitting. >> I agree the last sentence should not be posted in public space. >> >> I do not agree that it is not constructive criticism, i.e., I think it is >> constructive. Let's not forget the original poster to whom Dick replied >> might not be a native English speaker. >> >>>> I have de-activated Fred Cooke from this mailing list. >>>> >> Judge, Jury and Executioner. This is not very democratic. > > Wrong metaphor. Think owner, and major shareholder. More below. If you > like, "bouncer > at a shareholder's meeting". > > >> In open source (s)he-who-does-the-work-decides is fine with me with respect >> to general directions, coding decisions, vcs, etc, but this is not a >> code-problem. > >>> I'm very glad! His posts have only ever been derogatory and of no >>> substance. Sorry you've had to deal with it. >> This I also don't agree with. Maybe he has not done as much as you (Brian), >> Dick or Jean-Pierre, he has been trying to be helpful. > > > Martijn, > > > Since you are a shareholder, I will try and respect your opinion, even as I > disagree with > most all of it. > > First, the least controversial: what is constructive criticism? > > 1) It does not end with "I do not like it". > 2) It respects the feelings of the performer. > 3) It uses language like "if you were to do this ..., then here would be the > benefit for > all of us..." > > > I do agree this is more difficult in a foreign language. > > > > Fred has been trying to gain respect through the wrong means, not through > contributions > and by being respectful. I grepped through the commit logs and don't see his > name once. > > On this list, and in general, *being respectful* earns you good will. Good > will then > eventually earns you respect. > > Around here we don't kick the *hens* that lay the golden eggs. All are not > equal here. > > When decency and respect break down, as has apparently happened here, we > would have to > fall back to understanding of ownership. Think of this mailing list as a > shareholder's > meeting, one in which they let customer's attend so long as they behave. > > The KiCad project has owners, and users. Some are owners. Some own more than > others. > Ownership can be measured by previous contributions. Contributions come in > many forms: > ideas, team building, leadership, coding, website administration, > documenting, sifting > through bug reports, translating, fixing bugs, building 3-d models, editing > wikis, etc. > etc. etc. > > > Here is my most important point: > those that have succeeded here have all been respectful at the start, this > includes > Jean-Pierre, who has been enormously respectful of the other hens. Wayne, > who has been > enormously respectful of the other hens. > > Brian, who has been enormously respectful of the hens. Name after name it's > the same > way. And I cherish every one of them, too many of which will go unnamed just > here. Sorry > Jerry, sorry sorry sorry, as I make my point without listing everyone. > > > Fabrizio has been enormously respectful of the hens *from the start* and > continues to be > so, and is now a hen himself. > > > The respect of the hens is a self identifying personality trait, that > predisposes a person > to succeed here, or to fail if you do not have it. This does not mean that a > person has > to agree with everything. I am respecting you now, even as I explain my > disagreement. > > > When I tried to protect a hen, Fabrizio, I got *personally* attacked in a > malicious, > non-ambiguous, destructive way. This is not a misunderstanding. I said > that Fred had > already also attacked me through my facebook account. Putting this to a vote > is > non-sensical. Democracy is not even remotely pertinent here. Even in law, > regardless of > the licensing model used, the project has owners. It is not a public domain > asset. > > > I am quite shocked that you would even think that I should have to endure > potential future > personal attacks from this person, after having invested over a quarter > million dollars of > my personal funds into KiCad? I am also a hen. I have already earned my > good will, and I > did it by being respectful of the hens and contributing. > > > You have no idea whether I contacted the other major shareholders before > taking this > action. Again, likening this mailing list and this project to a democracy is > foolish. It > is not a democracy. You yourself are a shareholder. > > Everyone can have a say, even non-owners. By being respectful, things simply > work and we > do not have to focus on ownership. Amazingly, owners tend to be respectful > and listen. > (Remember, I am saying they only came to be significant owners because they > were > respectful in the first place. Interesting phenomenon that.) > > > Your opinion is noted. It seems we disagree. Fred will not be part of this > team so long > as I am, and I have too much invested to leave at this time. And trust me > when I tell you > that I did not have to ask the other major shareholders (hens) because I > already knew they > respected me, had already built up that good will, just like I respect them. > > The only awkward part here is that I was the victim. However, I would not > hesitate to do > the same thing for any other hen should it ever become necessary. > > We clearly do not need to be attacking the hens that lay the golden eggs, as > that will > mean less eggs. > > Dick > > _______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
