On Wednesday, June 11, 2003, at 12:11 AM, Dora wrote:
I am writing to these lists because I understand that many of the threads I am investigating are primarily lacemaking threads. People on these lists would have knowledge about them.
I have volunteered to mend the altar linen - once I learned that mending it requires only the ability to hand darn neatly - and some good fine thread.
The altar guild expect the mending to be barely visible. Noone who knows how to do it is currently at our church. The work that I found on the altar linen is a very neat hand darning job - with ordinary or slightly fine sewing thread. But that particular piece is not as finely woven as most of our altar linen, and I think that the appropriate thread would be less visible.
A couple of women in the altar guild mentioned machine darning - please don't anyone mention it to me as I don't own a machine and machine darning is not nearly as easy to get right.
I am having a problem finding out what sort of fine thread to get.
The altar linen is pure linen - washed many times, and presumably done shrinking. It gets handled as delicate linen and ironed dry.
Is the best linen to use linen, or cotton? One company I wrote to recommended their fine polyester thread - is that a good idea, or will it necessarily have too much of a sheen to it?
If the alter cloth is linen then linen thread would be the best to use. Cotton would be second best but certainly not polyester, rayon or silk.
People on the needlework news groups are saying that linen thread may not necessarily be very strong or suitable for sewing, and also that it may be hard to find white linen thread that is truly white.
Fully bleached linen thread is truly white, it's not "optic white" which means that it has chemical additives which glow under uv light, the sort of thing that glows in the lights of a nightclub disco, and it will get whiter with washing.
Tanne and cotona are the same threads - cotona comes on little reels and tanne on bigger spools.
People have recommended Madeira tanne or cotona 80 - but I am having difficulty learning just how fine this stuff is, and there is a question about how strong it is, and also about whether darning requires a strong thread. Madeira threads are lacemaking threads, and their tanne 50 is not finer than the Sulky #40 that I was able to lay my hands on. Both have a tex size of about 24. Coats and Clark's extra fine dual duty polyester is finer than that!
Sulky is a rayon thread so don't use that.
You are right in saying that Madeira tanne/cotona 30 is a little thicker than Sulky 40, but size 50 is finer and size 80 is finer still.
I compare thread thicknesses by wrapping the thread around a card and counting how many wraps it takes to cover 1cm. The more wraps the finer the thread.
Tanne 30 = 29 wraps/cm
Tanne 50 = 39 wraps/cm
Tanne 80 = 50 wraps/cm
Sulky 40 = 34 wraps/cm
Ordinary sewing machine threads such as Sylko 50 or Drima are in the region of 30 - 35 wraps/cm
Linen thread is strong, especially when wet, but it is usually a bit 'slubby' ie a bit eneven in thickness whereas cotton threads are smoother.
What!! if they have discontinued it it's news to me - and I guess news to a lot of others too!The Madeira company was no help. I contacted the contact e-mail on the U.S. web site. The guy who wrote back said they don't make cotona and have discontinued tanne but possibly the U.S. branch makes it so contact them!
The only size of Londonderry line that I have seen is 80/3 and that measured 23 wraps/cm so thicker than you are wantingI didn't even find #80 on their web site - so probably they have discontinued it. They guy said he'd enver HEARD of it - though you can still buy it all over the web and everyone on the needlework newsgroups seems to have some.
People recommended a finer grade of Londerry linen thread - but not sure if linen is suitable for this.
DMC Retors D'Alsace and DMC Brilliante D'Alsace are the same - Retors comes on big reels and Brilliante comes on smaller reels. Nowadays they are both marketed as DMC Broder Machine.
Another recommendation was d'Alace #50 DMC, but I can't fine that on the DMC web site at all, and it isn't clear that it isn't really one of several other DMC lacemaking threads that are too shiny and too tightly wound to use to darn altar linen. Allegedly it is soft. I hope that means matte finish. I haven't been able to learn waht size it really is at all. DMC did not answer my e-mail. EVeryone says d'Alace #50 is very fine, but everyone also says Sulky #40 is very fine, and its tex number of 24 barely fits into the fine thread category. Allegedly is is very similar to Madeira tanne or cotona - but the guy who said that did not say similar to what weight of Madeira tanne or cotona, and since I already have some tex 24 thread, I've no need to acquire something of the same weight as tanne or cotona #50!
DMC Broder Machine 30 = 32 wraps/cm
DMC Broder machine 50 = 42 wraps/cm
Thread sizing is a minefield!Several people have told me to use #80 or #100 thread by teh system by which ordinary sewing thread is #60 - but I haven't been able to learn which sizing system is that! I have been led to believe that it doesn't necessarily have much to do with the lace making and fine machine embroidery threads that I understand are the sort of thread I am looking for.
Most cotton threads are sized by the English Cotton Count (CC) = number of 840yard hanks obtained from 1 lb of fibres, but the quality of the fibres and the tightness of the spin affect the final product.
Linen thread is sized by the English Linen Count (NeL) = number of 300yard hanks obtained from 1 lb fibres.
Nowadays a lot of threads have a metric number (Nm) = number of 1 meter hanks produced from 1kg fibres.
Silk and rayon usually have a denier number which is the weight in grams of 9,000 meters of thread.
Not suitable if it's polyester.I have read the thread size explanations on the web, including the Thread of Truth article, Vibeke Ervo's article, American and Efyrd's site, and a number of similar sites - but there is some stuff they leave out.
A well- recommended thread seller recommended their The Bottom Line applique and bobbin thread. "Fine weight 60" wt." Of course, they didn't tell me weight 60 on which thread sizing system - or which "weight" system! (Can't mean ordinary sewing thread, which is "60".) He did say it is made of polyester - is it suitable for mending linen altar linen?
Having said all that I think that you need to decide whether to use cotton or linen.
The finest linen thread around nowadays is probably Fresia or Bouc.
Fresia 12/2 = 34 wraps/cm
Fresia 140/2 = 46 wraps cm
Bouc 100 = 36wraps/cm
Cotton thread comes much finer. Egyptian gassed cotton or Brok are the finest.
Egyptian Gassed 100/2 = 56 wraps/cm
Egyptian Gassed 120/2 = 58 wraps/cm
Egyptian Gassed 140/2 = 62wraps/cm
Egyptian Gassed 160/2 = 64 wraps/cm
Egyptian Gassed 180/2 = 80 wraps/cm
Brok100/2 = 56 wraps/cm
Brok 120/2 = 60 wraps/cm
Brok 140/2 = 64 wraps/cm
Brok 160/2 = 66 wraps/cm
Brok 170/2 = 80 wraps/cm
I suggest you contact one of the lacemaking suppliers who stock a range of threads.
You don't say where in the world you are and your email address doesn't give any clues.
In UK I'd suggest Tim Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
If you are in USA try Holly van Sciver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For some more links to threads manufacturer's websites go via my website: http://users.argonet.co.uk/users/paternoster/Threads/manufacturers.html
Hope I've helped Brenda
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