Sue Hartigan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I thought that this really gave an inside story on the DP...A Judge who has to impose it, the DA who has to ask and fight for it, and the defense attorney who has to try and prevent it. Their stories are really good, IMO, and from people who know what it is like to have to work with it. Sue Monday, April 20, 1998 (This is an unedited, uncorrected transcript.) JUDGE ALEX KOZINSKI, US COURT OF APPEALS Sometimes if people are evil enough, if you let them live, somehow you’re insulting the memory of the victims. CHRIS WALLACE, ABC NEWS (VO) Even for a man who believes in the death penalty, it’s terrifying and he’s the judge. NINA TOTENBERG, Nightline CONTRIBUTOR (interviewing) Have you ever been to an execution? JUDGE ALEX KOZINSKI No. NINA TOTENBERG Why not? JUDGE ALEX KOZINSKI I’m afraid. CHRIS WALLACE (VO) Then there’s the prosecutor. BILL KUNKLE, SPECIAL PROSECUTOR Revenge, nobody wanted to use the word revenge for years. I mean, how can you suggest civilized folk would want to take revenge. What’s wrong with revenge? CHRIS WALLACE (VO) And the defense attorney. BRYAN STEVENSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY The only people who say that are the people who can never imagine that it might be them who spends six years on death row, who sits in a cell, you know, watching people march by their cell to be executed, who have been in a cell and actually had to smell flesh burning as somebody is electrocuted in the electric chair. CHRIS WALLACE (VO) Tonight, life and death, three players on the stage of justice. ANNOUNCER From ABC News, this is Nightline. Substituting for Ted Koppel and reporting from Washington, Chris Wallace. CHRIS WALLACE Now and then the case of someone in this country sentenced to death grabs our attention. In February, it was Karla Faye Tucker, the first woman executed in Texas since 1863. And last week, it was Angel Breard, a Paraguayan citizen who was put to death in Virginia despite calls by the US secretary of state for a delay. But what’s most striking is not the big cases. No, it’s the steady stream of executions. Since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976, 452 people have been killed and the pace is quickening. Last year, there were 74 executions. So far this year, there have been 20, and three more people are scheduled to die on Wednesday. There’s now a move in some places to make it even easier to impose the death penalty. In the wake of the Jonesboro schoolyard shootings, one Texas law maker wants to make it possible to sentence murderers to death at age 11. But while all the rest of us talk about it, Nightline contributor Nina Totenberg spent time with three people who must grapple with executions on a routine basis. You’ll meet a federal judge who supports the death penalty but is haunted by it and a Chicago prosecutor who is an ardent supporter. But we begin with the defense attorney, Bryan Stevenson, who spends his life getting people off death row. BRYAN STEVENSON I think living in a society where there are all of these lawyers, we’ve got lots of lawyers, and then to be presented with a community of people who are literally dying for legal assistance and unable to get it effectively. NINA TOTENBERG (VO) Jesse Morrison is one of many men Bryan Stevenson has saved from execution. Stevenson will never forget witnessing the execution of a man who called too late to be helped. BRYAN STEVENSON Standing with him some 15 minutes before that execution and we had this conversation that I’ll never forget. And he was telling me about how strange his day had been. And he was saying to me, he said Bryan, you know, it’s been such a strange day because all day long people have been saying what they can do to help. He said when I woke up this morning the guards came and said what do you want for breakfast. Then he said at midday they came and said what do you want for lunch. And then in the evening they said what do you want for dinner. And they, he was saying to me all day they’ve been saying can we get you some coffee, do you need water, do you need access to the phone to call your friends and family, do you need stamps to mail your last letters? I never will forget him saying to me in those last minutes, he said Brian, more people have asked me what they can do to help me in the last 14 hours of my life than they ever did in the first 19 years of my life. SECRETARY Hello, EJI. NINA TOTENBERG (VO) Since then, Stevenson’s office has handled more than 100 cases and not yet lost a client. His most stunning victory was the case of Walter McMillan (ph), a man who spent six years on death row for a crime he did not commit. BRYAN STEVENSON And to finally see him walk out of Alabama’s death row was a real victory, but it’s a scary victory. And, frankly, the ease with which Mr McMillan was convicted and sentenced to death and the difficulty we had in proving his innocence and getting him released from death row I think would frighten any American that looked at the situation. NINA TOTENBERG (interviewing) You know, supporters of the death penalty say that the fact that 69 or 70 people have been let off death row because they’re innocent actually proves the system works. BRYAN STEVENSON The only people who say that are the people who can never imagine that it might be them who spends six years on death row, who sits in the cell, you know, watching people march by their cell to be executed, who’ve been in a cell and actually had to smell flesh burning as somebody is electrocuted in the electric chair. To go through the torture and the condemnation that comes with all of collective society saying you are not fit to live and to have to experience that for 18 years and then to say the system works because we actually kept them from killing you I think is grossly insensitive. NINA TOTENBERG (VO) And one of the primary reasons the system doesn’t work, says Stevenson, is race. BRYAN STEVENSON It’s not uncommon to go into counties that are 40, 45 percent African—American where no person of color has ever served on a capital trial jury. There are cases that we have handled where prosecutors have referred to the defense of minority defendants as “niggeritis,” or otherwise used racial slurs in characterizing the defense or the members of the defendant’s family. NINA TOTENBERG (VO) In a handful of states, including Alabama, there is no statewide public defender system. In Alabama, for those unable to pay for a lawyer, the state provides a mere $1,000 for the defense in a capital case. (on camera) That means there is little money for investigation or for testing of crucial forensic evidence like DNA that can prove a client’s innocence. And in these cases, where the quality of the lawyering may literally determine life or death, $1,000 doesn’t buy much. BRYAN STEVENSON We have cases where the lawyers called no witnesses at the guilt phase, called no witnesses at the penalty phase. We have cases where the lawyer expressed to the jury a desire to see the client get the death penalty but then admitted because I’m the defense lawyer I have to ask you to give him life imprisonment without parole. We have cases where the lawyers made no closing arguments at either phase of the trial. NINA TOTENBERG (interviewing) The crimes they have been convicted for, however, are really, by and large, pretty terrible crimes. I mean why shouldn’t they die? BRYAN STEVENSON Well, all crime is terrible. There’s no question about that. And I don’t ever argue that someone who is guilty of murder or some serious felony offense should not be punished. Of course they should be punished. That’s a legitimate response to violence and victimization. How they’re punished is the question. NINA TOTENBERG Have you ever lost a loved one to a violent crime? BRYAN STEVENSON Yeah. My family has seen, its, probably more than its fair share of violence. My grandfather was murdered when I was 16. There’s nothing that can be done to bring him back or anybody else back who’s been the victim of a violent crime but there is a lot that can be done to create a society where the risk of violence, where the incidence of violence is less. NINA TOTENBERG Have you never met anybody on death row who was just evil? BRYAN STEVENSON I’ve met a lot of people on death row about whom I can say this person is dangerous, this person is violent, this person is ill, this person may never be in a position where they can function safely in society. But I’ve never met anybody about whom I could say this person’s life has no meaning, this person is beyond hope, this person is beyond redemption, this person’s life is purposeless. NINA TOTENBERG Is there any crime for which you think the death penalty would be justified? Hitler? Eichmann? Despots who’ve killed millions of people or hundreds of thousands of people in Cambodia, Rwanda? BRYAN STEVENSON There are lots of crimes that deserve as much punishment as we can muster. But I know that we’ve got 3,300 people on death row in the United States and we could execute everybody tonight and nobody in Dallas or Los Angeles or Miami or New York would feel any safer walking the streets tomorrow. And so it becomes a question of who are we, not who are the people who committed these terrible crimes, but who are we. And I think we ought to be a society, a community of humans that are better than the worst crimes that we have seen. CHRIS WALLACE In a moment, why one prosecutor believes revenge justifies the death penalty. -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues