Hi Troy,

since you haven't received anything from any of the other "core"
developers yet (I don't really consider myself a "core developer" of
leaf, but my name is on the webpage...) I want to give you at least some
response to your valid concerns.

> Question 1:
> How do you handle security patches for packages? For example, if you were
> running a "full" Debian distro, a simple "apt-get update" would insure that
> you pull down the latest security patches... What is the approach to making
> sure UClibc is secure...?  
At this point, there is nothing automated (like "apt-get update", "yum
update", "up2date -u" or whatever). The only thing you can do at this
point is monitor the packages page (the "Package changelog" section
should help with the monitoring), then doing a backup of all config
files of your package on the router, replacing the package with the one
from the packages page, and loading the config from the backup you made,
possibly after double-checking that the old config will still work with
the new package (this should usually be the case, but it there is no
guarantee it will work). If that is not satisfactory to you, please see
my mail to Richard - maybe it will be of interest to you.

> Question 2:
> As I understand it, the inherent advantage to running a Linux embedded
> firewall is that it is running completely in RAM and that you are using
> media that is not writable unless it is mounted. I used to use a dual-floppy
> setup and we can always flip the tabs to make sure the disks are not
> writable. But... I have recently switched to CF and now I am not so sure I
> can boast the media is not writable..  
People have posted scripts that remove the modules needed for mounting
the CF (search the archives), and there's also anecdotal evidence that
CFs exist that have a write protect switch (I've not seen any of those
personally though).
Personally, I think the advantage of having things on a read-only medium
is overrated - if one trusts too much on having things on a read-only
medium, it may result in not checking the logs often and thoroughly
enough, in the end resulting in even less security (granted, it one did
hit the reset button, one would have a clean system, but if one is so
sure of the security of the box that one doesn't check the logs, the
reset button is never hit, thus rendering the "read-only" advantage
useless). In the end, it only helps if you either hit reset frequently
(but the whole that people might get in through will still be there
after you hit reset, so it will only buy you some time, until the next
kid with a script comes along), or if you keep an eye on the logs, so
you know when to hit the reset button - but if you keep an eye on the
logs, you don't really need that read-only advantage anymore.
In short, yes, it is nice to have that extra layer of protection, having
a known clean source to boot from. But I can achieve the same thing by
keeping a dd image of my CF in a safe place, and putting that onto the
CF before rebooting, if I think something is wrong. That approach also
helps against CFs that might get corrupted over time (again, see the
archives for examples of how that can happen either by bad/old hardware,
or by operator error).

> Can someone please lay out for me the advantages and pitfalls of running
> LEAF Bering UClibc against say... A full Debian install on a regular hard
> drive? I have not found anything online that does an objective comparison. I
> am hoping that someone on the LEAF list could have a crack at laying it all
> out so I can make sure I make an informed decision to either stay with or
> get rid of this package from our infrastructure.  
That's obviously the toughest of your questions. I just have two
thoughts to offer - I don't claim that these address all possible
aspects of your question.
- for the "average linux user", it would be quite a lot of work to strip
down the standard Fedora Core install (sorry, that's the only one I've
done that kind of thing with in the recent past) to fit on a 32 MB
compact flash. So, it would take either somebody who _really_ knows what
he's doing, or at least quite a bit of effort to get to such a system
(stipped down to 32MB or less and still fully functional)
- somewhat along the lines of the above - if you take the approach that
"2GB CFs aren't all that expensive these days" and use the standard
minimal install without manually stripping things (or simply use an old
harddrive, which offer plenty of space), you'll most likely be running
lots of things that (IMHO) do not belong on a router - stuff that is
added either for compatibility reasons or to make like easier for the
typical desktop user (telnet, rsh and so on, ftp, smb, bind, snmp and
whatever else). I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with those
applications, they just don't belong on a router (again, in my opinion),
unless the admin specifically installs them, and knows what [s]he is doing.

In the end, there's nothing you can do with leaf that you can't do with
debian (leaf Bering [uClibc] is based on debian afterall), it just
requires a lot of knowledge to do so - and that's where a specialized
distro like the ones offered by leaf comes in - it serves a very
specific purpose, that could also be achieved by other means, but not
with the small amount of work it takes to set up a leaf box.

I hope that helps a bit.

Martin


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