Hi, I am sorry, you are right, based on what I said, this conversation hardly concerns osm directly. I asked before I did not know where to start getting real help about this. And so, thank you for your answer. It finally got into the heart of the subject. I never thought of that point, that transport companies do not collect the timetable database, as it is already there. And this was, in fact, almost my argument in what I said, except that I did not realize the full extent of the separation between the creation and the gathering of the timetables. And you are right too, in the fact that timetables are close to be obvious copyrightable things, in that they are original creations of the mind, that really needed thinking, and time. About the distinction between sui generis and copyright, I jumped some times between the two groups of articles you cite here, I just did not understand until now that "sui generis" was exactly what I called "database copyright", as opposed to "droits d'auteur", for what you call - and actually is -"database copyright". In other words, I knew the distinction but did not know how to say it in english. What is weird, though, is that really every lawyer I asked in France, confirmed me there would not be any copyright on a single timetable, and the same for the collection of different timetables. They were always afraid of the interpretation of the database law, precisely because there had been no cases about it yet. And about the formal instruction, the point is I am a student, and I don't know if with the 500€ a year max I could spend on such unpredicted stuff, I would be sure to get my final advice...And when I asked today to one of the lawyers I called, he told me that on such a complex case, it would very probably cost me a lot...I really do not know where I will be able to find out all this money for that...and when I asked other cabinets, without even forwarding me to any lawyer they told me straight that this would be really expensive...I am no business man, unfortunately! Especially if I wanted, like at the beginning, to open this site I wanted to create, to as much countries as possible...this is just impossible to do without a huge proper funding...and still, it will be no use to osm and transiki because, even with all the advice that could be gathered, on the ways to bypass what can be bypassed, as you said it would probably be still too risky to use anything without proper authorization... Maybe then I will just turn to Transiki, and think of a way to get all these damn authorizations fast...We may still have a point in the fact that travel agencies in France always have this dichotomy between their internal database, and you recreating it with one-by-one timetables...Upon what you said, they still have to authorize it (which, in my experience, they all even do not know), but they will be much eager to do so, based on everything I heard. So developping a tool to assist timetable data transfer from pdf files to the transiki database, would still be a good thing I could start thinking of... Anyway, thank you for this very clever answer, it made me advance in this. Good night Andrei
2010/12/6 Francis Davey <fjm...@gmail.com> > On 6 December 2010 20:57, Andrei Klochko <transportspl...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Hello, > > [snip] > > > strategy, to avoid trouble. Any advice on such an entreprise? > > I'm not sure that this is really on topic for this list since it > doesn't impact legally on open street map (or it shouldn't). Its also > the kind of thing you should talk to a lawyer, preferably a French > lawyer, about rather than asking for advice on list, since you may get > more reliable advice that way. Also - this is true in this country but > may not be true in France - lawyers prefer to be formally instructed > when giving advice of this specificity in case the advice is acted > upon and then the person they advised gets into difficulty. The formal > instructions are a form of protection for the lawyer. > > Having said that you might want to think carefully about the > difference between database copyright (in L112-3 of the intellectual > property code) and the sui generis database right (in L341-1). > > There's a reasonable argument, based on the Fixtures Marketing cases > (see http://curia.europa.eu/fr/actu/communiques/cp04/aff/cp040089fr.pdf) > that a transport company does not acquire a database right in its own > timetable data because it does not expend resources "collecting" it > (in French the word is "la constitution" rather than "collection"). It > makes the timetable itself so does not need to collect it. As the > creator it has no database right (an odd but important result). I > think that is the thrust of your argument. > > But, a transport company might be able to claim a database copyright > in its timetable on the basis that it is an "intellectual creation". > The idea of the database directive was that a common standard would be > applied across all EU states for the threshold test for database > copyright. My impression is that the threshold for database copyright > is lower in France than it is for most other forms of copyright, but > that is still somewhat uncertain I think. > > The reason this may be a real issue is that it does require > intellectual creativity to put together most transport timetables. > Considerable thought needs to go in to ensuring that they work. On the > basis of a recent High Court case in which the football league's > fixtures list was accepted as an intellectual creation, I am fairly > sure that such timetables are copyrightable as databases in England. > The standard _ought_ to be the same in France, but there has been no > direct court of justice authority on the point as far as I know. > > In other words: I don't think it would work. > > -- > Francis Davey > > _______________________________________________ > legal-talk mailing list > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk >
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